Flagshagging

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secret squirrel
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by secret squirrel » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:27 pm

headshot wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:59 am
TopBadger wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:19 am
Perhaps I'm odd - but an image of a chain doesn't move my mind to thoughts about tying people up. If the Black Country flag featured an image of an actual shackle that would be different. But it doesn't.

Similarly - I don't find imagery of locks (a different subcomponent of what is required to restrain someone) offensive. Same goes for carabiners.
Mmmm, but the chains forged in The Black Country *actually shackled slaves*. It's not some distant symbolic connection I'm making. The actual chains that shackled thousands of actual slaves are the main emblem on the flag of the region.

There are many symbols of industry. They could have used many other emblems that didn't have actual links (pun intended) to the slave trade.
I'm with you here. Kind of mind-boggling that some people aren't getting this.

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headshot
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by headshot » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:57 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:27 pm
headshot wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:59 am
TopBadger wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:19 am
Perhaps I'm odd - but an image of a chain doesn't move my mind to thoughts about tying people up. If the Black Country flag featured an image of an actual shackle that would be different. But it doesn't.

Similarly - I don't find imagery of locks (a different subcomponent of what is required to restrain someone) offensive. Same goes for carabiners.
Mmmm, but the chains forged in The Black Country *actually shackled slaves*. It's not some distant symbolic connection I'm making. The actual chains that shackled thousands of actual slaves are the main emblem on the flag of the region.

There are many symbols of industry. They could have used many other emblems that didn't have actual links (pun intended) to the slave trade.
I'm with you here. Kind of mind-boggling that some people aren't getting this.
Yeah, I also don't buy the argument that because a 12 year-old kid, who was probably ignorant of the connection, designed it, it's free from criticism.

You know what? That kid SHOULDN'T be ignorant of the connection. They should be taught about the connection between the British Empire, the industrial revolution and the slave trade. They should be the first people who see the chains and think "slaves".

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Tessa K
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Tessa K » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:50 pm

headshot wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:57 pm
secret squirrel wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:27 pm
headshot wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:59 am


Mmmm, but the chains forged in The Black Country *actually shackled slaves*. It's not some distant symbolic connection I'm making. The actual chains that shackled thousands of actual slaves are the main emblem on the flag of the region.

There are many symbols of industry. They could have used many other emblems that didn't have actual links (pun intended) to the slave trade.
I'm with you here. Kind of mind-boggling that some people aren't getting this.
Yeah, I also don't buy the argument that because a 12 year-old kid, who was probably ignorant of the connection, designed it, it's free from criticism.

You know what? That kid SHOULDN'T be ignorant of the connection. They should be taught about the connection between the British Empire, the industrial revolution and the slave trade. They should be the first people who see the chains and think "slaves".
Even if it was designed by a 12 year old, presumably an adult was involved somewhere along the line?

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Re: Flagshagging

Post by headshot » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:41 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:50 pm
headshot wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:57 pm
secret squirrel wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:27 pm


I'm with you here. Kind of mind-boggling that some people aren't getting this.
Yeah, I also don't buy the argument that because a 12 year-old kid, who was probably ignorant of the connection, designed it, it's free from criticism.

You know what? That kid SHOULDN'T be ignorant of the connection. They should be taught about the connection between the British Empire, the industrial revolution and the slave trade. They should be the first people who see the chains and think "slaves".
Even if it was designed by a 12 year old, presumably an adult was involved somewhere along the line?
This the The Black Country, so the answer is "maybe?"

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Little waster
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Little waster » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:58 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:36 pm
Yeah, England is still in denial about its role in slavery. The USA at least talks about it a lot. In the UK it might get a brief mention as an economic fact in a school history lesson, and then everyone tries not to think about it for the rest of their lives.
Pshaw!

At school I learned all* about how the glorious British Empire lead by William Wilberforce stamped out the international slave trade driven by nothing more than Christian compassion and the Anglosphere's unshakeable commitment to liberty and freedom!

UK! UK! UK!

In a similar way presumably the ancestors of all those people in Liverpool, Glasgow, Newcastle and Manchester who just upped sticks and moved there from Ireland around 1850 were doing it out of some sort of inate Celtic wanderlust.




*TBF we never learnt about how the transatlantic slave trade got started (presumably it has always existed), or why so many British (and ex-British) colonies has such high slave populations, or why the British felt so culpable in the first place (presumably just out of pure British decency) or what happened to the former slave traders (dying of poverty in a workhouse I assume; it is not as if the UK government would give them massive compensation payments and then stick statues of them all over the place and, even two centuries later, still go out of their way to publicly defend what paragons of virtue these despicable ghouls were). But these are all mere details, I'm sure.
It's meta, so it is allowed.

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Tessa K
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Tessa K » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:40 am

I remember at junior school being shown images of how the slaves were packed onto the ships. I don't remember anything else we learnt about it but that image has always stayed with me.

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Re: Flagshagging

Post by bagpuss » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:38 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:40 am
I remember at junior school being shown images of how the slaves were packed onto the ships. I don't remember anything else we learnt about it but that image has always stayed with me.
We read a book called The Slave Dancer for Eng Lit O Level. It was fiction and I no longer recall anything about the plot but I do remember the vivid depictions of life and death on board ship. It was definitely the first and last that I learned anything at school beyond the basic outline of slavery was a thing and William Wilberforce was great.

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Rich Scopie
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Rich Scopie » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:39 pm

nezumi wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:33 pm
Rich Scopie wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:15 pm
nezumi wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:27 pm
I'm terribly depressed by the fact I can't find a flag for my area, we're not North Yorkshire and we're not Durham or anything either. I live in :cry: a flagless place :cry:

No flag.
Not even a sh.t flag.
No flag.
Flagless.
Bereft of flag.
*sniff*
Cleveland?
Not even exactly that either. Middlesbrough. It's in...Teesside and Cleveland and North Yorkshire and none of these at the same time.
I'm so sorry.

I had a girlfriend from Guisborough, so don't feel too bad about it.
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by bmforre » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:00 am

Tessa K wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:40 am
I remember at junior school being shown images of how the slaves were packed onto the ships. I don't remember anything else we learnt about it but that image has always stayed with me.
For a close-in smelly picture of slave trading I recommend the book "Flash for Freedom".

For the slave traders comeuppance see "Flashman and the Redskins" with a finish at Little Bighorn.

For a different view of Little Bighorn see Ousman Sow
In 1999, his African series and a large-scale tableau of the Battle of Little Bighorn, displayed on the Pont des Arts in Paris, attracted three million visitors.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:39 am

nezumi wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:33 pm
Rich Scopie wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:15 pm
nezumi wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:27 pm
I'm terribly depressed by the fact I can't find a flag for my area, we're not North Yorkshire and we're not Durham or anything either. I live in :cry: a flagless place :cry:

No flag.
Not even a sh.t flag.
No flag.
Flagless.
Bereft of flag.
*sniff*
Cleveland?
Not even exactly that either. Middlesbrough. It's in...Teesside and Cleveland and North Yorkshire and none of these at the same time.
I thought surely not, a place as important as Middlesbrough must have its own flag.

It might do.

Here's a Google streetview screenshot of a mostly red flag flying from Middlesborough town hall:
Middlesborough Flag.jpg
Middlesborough Flag.jpg (103.23 KiB) Viewed 500 times

It looks like that flag can also be seen on this Wiki image of the town hall.

The colours make sense as Middlesborough FC uses red and white.

Sometimes town halls fly other flags for various reasons (eg that of twin towns etc) but I doubt that would happen on both dates.

However, I can't find any other information about it. Even looks on the council web site. So my guess is that you have a flag. Which no one talks about.

Middlesbrough does have a coat of arms, which is blue, white and black.

It looks like the flag is the coat of arms on a red background.

nezumi
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by nezumi » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:37 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:39 am

Middlesbrough does have a coat of arms, which is blue, white and black.

It looks like the flag is the coat of arms on a red background.
Hooray! Thanks chopper :D

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Re: Flagshagging

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:01 pm

Vertigowooyay wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:09 pm
Lovely thread by Adam Rutherford showing how utterly idiotic and transparent the whole flagshagging nonsense is.

https://twitter.com/AdamRutherford/stat ... 73668?s=20
Just catching up on this, but he's very wrong about Prince William's use of union flags. There are, in fact, two - one on the flag of New Zealand, and one next to it. So there. Ha.

(It's quite far down the page, just above the stormtrooper image)
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:41 pm

Anyway, my county of residence, Bedfordshire, has a flag with waves and shells on it, despite being doubly landlocked.

Image
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Tessa K
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Tessa K » Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:18 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:41 pm
Anyway, my county of residence, Bedfordshire, has a flag with waves and shells on it, despite being doubly landlocked.

Image

The shells come from the arms of the Dukes of Bedford
Frequently appearing as an inanimate heraldic charge, the escallop shell initially served as an emblem for pilgrims. From this early usage derived its later employment in heraldry, as a sign of long voyages to distant lands. It symbolized piety, victory and warrior spirit.
https://myblazon.com/heraldry/glossary/ ... %20spirit.

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Re: Flagshagging

Post by basementer » Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:21 pm

The waves just mean

Code: Select all

where name like '*ford' 
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:58 pm

I didn't say there weren't reasons, just that no one at any point stepped back and said, "does anyone know how far away the coast is here?"
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Martin Y
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Martin Y » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:17 pm

You're sure they're not three ghosts?

The one in the middle looks a bit like the old caretaker to me.

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Mostly Harmless
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Mostly Harmless » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:11 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:17 pm
You're sure they're not three ghosts?

The one in the middle looks a bit like the old caretaker to me.
And I would've gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you pisci kids.
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by tenchboy » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:41 am

That was an interesting wikiwalk!
When ^ mentioned the Dukes of Bedford, that rang a bell; I thought <fenland drainage> wasn't he... didn't he... so looked up '100ft drain' which is one of the massive drains that run through the area and is/used to be famous (along with many other names from childhood such as the Sixteen & Forty foot, the Nene, the Welland, the Ouse and the Relief Channel) because of the huge fishing matches that were held there and where the legendary Ivan Marks once reigned supreme. Unknown places only heard of whilst reading the Angling Times in the playground!
Anyway the hundred foot was indeed part of the massive land reclamation scheme and the Duke of Bedford of that time was the he that led the scheme, so hence its alternym of The New Bedford River, part of the Great Ouse as it runs through Cambridgeshire.
And hence its being on the flag thought I.
But hold!
So I had a look at wikibedfordcountyflag and its no where near as complicated as that, 'the wavy lines represent the Great Ouse'.
Hey ho & to work!
:) Happy days
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individualmember
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by individualmember » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:00 am

I just looked up the flag of this county, never having seen one, it manages to be both traditional and first registered in 2011.

https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/04/ ... hire-flag/

And it has some chain on it as well. But it’s clear what the use of the chain was.

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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Aitch » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:32 am

individualmember wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:00 am
I just looked up the flag of this county, never having seen one, it manages to be both traditional and first registered in 2011.

https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/04/ ... hire-flag/

And it has some chain on it as well. But it’s clear what the use of the chain was.
The flag for Middlesex, where Staines was, is pretty cool in a Saxon way - a guy around the corner flies it occasionally, but he has flags for every day of the year.

The flag for Surrey, where Staines is, is a bit meh. Unless you are into chess...
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by shpalman » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:56 am

Coat of arms of Scunthorpe:

Image

The five steel* links depict the original five parishes of Ashby, Brumby, Crosby, Frodingham and Scunthorpe that formed the town.

* - and also the iron and steel industries upon which the modern development of the town is based.
molto tricky

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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Little waster » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:03 am

shpalman wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:56 am
Coat of arms of Scunthorpe:

Image

The five steel* links depict the original five parishes of Ashby, Brumby, Crosby, Frodingham and Scunthorpe that formed the town.

* - and also the iron and steel industries upon which the modern development of the town is based.
An earlier version had a female pudenda prominently displayed in the centre and is referred to in the traditional 17th century folk ditty “Scunthorpe, why dost thou have my lady’s loins presented? Which knave is responsible? Hey nunny-yoni.” which I believe you can still hear stanzas of lustily sang at sporting contests.
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by tenchboy » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:38 am

Little waster wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:03 am
shpalman wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:56 am
Coat of arms of Scunthorpe:

Image

The five steel* links depict the original five parishes of Ashby, Brumby, Crosby, Frodingham and Scunthorpe that formed the town.

* - and also the iron and steel industries upon which the modern development of the town is based.
An earlier version had a female pudenda prominently displayed in the centre and is referred to in the traditional 17th century folk ditty “Scunthorpe, why dost thou have my lady’s loins presented? Which knave is responsible? Hey nunny-yoni.” which I believe you can still hear stanzas of lustily sang at sporting contests.
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Re: Flagshagging

Post by Trinucleus » Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:57 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:56 am
Coat of arms of Scunthorpe:

Image

The five steel* links depict the original five parishes of Ashby, Brumby, Crosby, Frodingham and Scunthorpe that formed the town.

* - and also the iron and steel industries upon which the modern development of the town is based.
Ooh, the shells are gryphea, a common fossil in the Jurassic strata, which includes the iron stone layer

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