Scrutable

jimbob wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:00 pm

Should we include the second jet for Prime Ministerial transport - which has been acquired at an undisclosed price.

I'm interested how much the combined cost of that, its refit and paintjob, and the festival of Brexit will cost compared to the NHS payrise.

Well, the last paint job is reported to have cost £900,000 (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 000-pounds). The cost of things not yet done is pretty much unknowable as costs tend to get mysteriously greater between planning and completion.

From https://inews.co.uk/nhs/nurse-salary-ho ... arn-899582 "The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) has estimated that an average NHS nurse’s pay is £33,384" and from https://www.gov.uk/government/news/reco ... in-the-nhs there are 299,184 nurses, so 1% of the total nurses' salary bill is £100 million. Calculations for doctors are left as an exercise for the reader.

And therefore if nurses had been given the money spent on the paint job, they'd have got a one-off payment of £3. The previous refit (from the same article) cost £10m, so that would have been a one-off payment of £33 - obviously much less if shared with doctors.

Millennie Al wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:56 am

jimbob wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:00 pm

Should we include the second jet for Prime Ministerial transport - which has been acquired at an undisclosed price.

I'm interested how much the combined cost of that, its refit and paintjob, and the festival of Brexit will cost compared to the NHS payrise.

Well, the last paint job is reported to have cost £900,000 (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 000-pounds). The cost of things not yet done is pretty much unknowable as costs tend to get mysteriously greater between planning and completion.

From https://inews.co.uk/nhs/nurse-salary-ho ... arn-899582 "The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) has estimated that an average NHS nurse’s pay is £33,384" and from https://www.gov.uk/government/news/reco ... in-the-nhs there are 299,184 nurses, so 1% of the total nurses' salary bill is £100 million. Calculations for doctors are left as an exercise for the reader.

And therefore if nurses had been given the money spent on the paint job, they'd have got a one-off payment of £3. The previous refit (from the same article) cost £10m, so that would have been a one-off payment of £33 - obviously much less if shared with doctors.

The NHS pay bill is far bigger than doctors and nurses.

Since this has turned into a local flags thing...
As much as I hate Lincolnshire, it has a lovely flag.
Seems to be flown everywhere in Market Rasen almost all the time.

tom p wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:49 am

Since this has turned into a local flags thing...
Seems to be flown everywhere in Market Rasen almost all the time.

The only time I’ve been to Market Rasen was to do a pyrotechnics qualification. We blew lots of things up.

I went, and stopped, in Boston once. Got punched in the mouth by a local as I was leaving a curry house. No idea why.

headshot wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:51 am

tom p wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:49 am

Since this has turned into a local flags thing...
Seems to be flown everywhere in Market Rasen almost all the time.

The only time I’ve been to Market Rasen was to do a pyrotechnics qualification. We blew lots of things up.

Nowhere near enough.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:05 am

headshot wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:51 am

tom p wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:49 am

Since this has turned into a local flags thing...
Seems to be flown everywhere in Market Rasen almost all the time.

The only time I’ve been to Market Rasen was to do a pyrotechnics qualification. We blew lots of things up.

Nowhere near enough.

There was an earthquake there not long after. I like to think the two things are connected.

Here's a lovely flag

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:24 pm

Here's a lovely flag

Now that's a flag that I would be happy to see lots of.

We have lots of these, too, along our local canal. They are very cheerful and I love it when they're out.

nezumi wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:27 pm

I'm terribly depressed by the fact I can't find a flag for my area, we're not North Yorkshire and we're not Durham or anything either. I live in a flagless place

No flag.
Not even a sh.t flag.
No flag.
Flagless.
Bereft of flag.
*sniff*

Cleveland?

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:15 pm

nezumi wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:27 pm

I'm terribly depressed by the fact I can't find a flag for my area, we're not North Yorkshire and we're not Durham or anything either. I live in a flagless place

No flag.
Not even a sh.t flag.
No flag.
Flagless.
Bereft of flag.
*sniff*

Cleveland?

Not even exactly that either. Middlesbrough. It's in...Teesside and Cleveland and North Yorkshire and none of these at the same time.

nezumi wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:33 pm

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:15 pm

nezumi wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:27 pm

I'm terribly depressed by the fact I can't find a flag for my area, we're not North Yorkshire and we're not Durham or anything either. I live in a flagless place

No flag.
Not even a sh.t flag.
No flag.
Flagless.
Bereft of flag.
*sniff*

Cleveland?

Not even exactly that either. Middlesbrough. It's in...Teesside and Cleveland and North Yorkshire and none of these at the same time.

Twinned with Bir Tawill and for much the same reason.

nezumi wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:33 pm

Rich Scopie wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:15 pm

nezumi wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:27 pm

I'm terribly depressed by the fact I can't find a flag for my area, we're not North Yorkshire and we're not Durham or anything either. I live in a flagless place

No flag.
Not even a sh.t flag.
No flag.
Flagless.
Bereft of flag.
*sniff*

Cleveland?

Not even exactly that either. Middlesbrough. It's in...Teesside and Cleveland and North Yorkshire and none of these at the same time.

Probably Yorkshire when the flag was invented I'd guess?

The only flag I'd ever have been tempted to march behind is this one.
But since the people decided to vote themselves down the toilet, bollocks. They can fight their own battles without me.

bagpuss wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:22 pm

And my birth/childhood county of Warwickshire is overrun with bears holding ragged staffs, obviously.

Looks like that bear is auditioning for IpMan. (my childhood county too)

raven wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:13 am

bagpuss wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:22 pm

And my birth/childhood county of Warwickshire is overrun with bears holding ragged staffs, obviously.

Looks like that bear is auditioning for IpMan. (my childhood county too)

It's annoyed because someone hasn't put the dumbells back on the rack.

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:37 pm

headshot wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:13 am

Vertigowooyay wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:01 pm

Bollocks to flags. They’re nasty little scraps of material that divide, not unite.

Yep. I’ve always said this. I particularly dislike regional flags in the UK. Another way to say “we’re better” that plays into division and exceptionalism.

I find the Black Country flag particularly egregious. Red, white and black and features chains that the area is famous for producing, but that also happen to have shackled slaves on the ships that imprisoned them. Any effort to educate the locals falls on deaf, or racist, ears. Even progressives here say it’s just a symbol of pride in the area’s history - they just can’t see how offensive it could be.

I think the Black Country flag is awesome. I'm surprised its offensive to anyone. The colours and images are symbolic to its industrial past, reading further than that is going out of your way to find fault...

Is the Sunderland AFC badge offensive because it has a ship on it? Ships were used to transport slaves... should we get offended about shipping? Bonkers.

Top Badger I agree with you 100%.
The flag was designed by a 12-year-old girl. The Black and Red colours come from a phrase in a book written by the American Consul in Birmingham, Elihu Burritt, “The Black Country and its Green Environs”, a mixture of tourist guide and industrial spying. In it he describes the Black Country as “Black by Day and Red by Night”. The white cone shaped object in the centre of the flag represents the cones used in the glass industry, not sure what other colour you could make it, orange yellow green and blue – surly not. As it was a manufacturing area and chain was arguably its most famous product it was the obvious choice to have on the flag.
The only people who made any money from the manufacture of chain were the rich, some of whom were slave owners, (1st Earl of Dudley, one-time Foreign Secretary, for example) who cared less for the lives of their workers than their slaves; slaves had to be purchased, workers didn’t.

I think it's quite obvious why using a chain that was used to shackle living humans being transported as slaves as a region's symbol could offend people. (The colours are obviously fine)

I can understand why a 12 year old might not join the dots, but adults should be able to.

See? People here don’t see why it’s offensive.

My black friends from America were horrified by it when they visited.

Yeah, England is still in denial about its role in slavery. The USA at least talks about it a lot. In the UK it might get a brief mention as an economic fact in a school history lesson, and then everyone tries not to think about it for the rest of their lives.

Indeed. I’m always amused when people talk about Bristol’s “proud maritime history”.

Chains hold ships
Chains hold people

If they only did the one, it wouldn't be contentious; and, of course, some people are less aware of their varied use.

I have a collection of images of numbers - because 'numbers' are used in so many ways, and to signify so many things.

However, there are images of tattoos of numbers into human skin, that are just so far outside the range of things that I feel justified to include - that I won't.

An artist can do things - and what I am doing in my collection might be considered as 'art', but I don't consider my collection as 'art'; so I will not include such images in my collection

veravista wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:01 am

I went, and stopped, in Boston once. Got punched in the mouth by a local as I was leaving a curry house. No idea why.

Back in the day Boston and Kettering were away games to miss. Up there with Millwall and Cardiff for sheer naked hostility inside and around the stadium.

Perhaps I'm odd - but an image of a chain doesn't move my mind to thoughts about tying people up. If the Black Country flag featured an image of an actual shackle that would be different. But it doesn't.

Similarly - I don't find imagery of locks (a different subcomponent of what is required to restrain someone) offensive. Same goes for carabiners.

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:19 am

Perhaps I'm odd - but an image of a chain doesn't move my mind to thoughts about tying people up. If the Black Country flag featured an image of an actual shackle that would be different. But it doesn't.

Similarly - I don't find imagery of locks (a different subcomponent of what is required to restrain someone) offensive. Same goes for carabiners.

Mmmm, but the chains forged in The Black Country *actually shackled slaves*. It's not some distant symbolic connection I'm making. The actual chains that shackled thousands of actual slaves are the main emblem on the flag of the region.

There are many symbols of industry. They could have used many other emblems that didn't have actual links (pun intended) to the slave trade.