Re: The Great Emptying of European Museums
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:13 pm
*cough*Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:56 am[lots of interesting stuff about the Pitt Rivers museum
*cough*Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:56 am[lots of interesting stuff about the Pitt Rivers museum
I can't begin to fathom the arrogance and ignoring of power disparities that allow an apparently intelligent person to make a statement like this in the context of the examples shared in this thread.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:43 amWe are one humanity. History and culture belongs to all of us.
Whilst I was trying to craft a reply to Millie Squeak got in with an excellent one. Thank youSqueak wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:31 amI can't begin to fathom the arrogance and ignoring of power disparities that allow an apparently intelligent person to make a statement like this in the context of the examples shared in this thread.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:43 amWe are one humanity. History and culture belongs to all of us.
Presumably if it were aliens or chimps who stole Truganini's body or William Lanne's head, that wouldn't be OK because they're not part of humanity. But because it was the colonial powers who did it, that's OK, because they're human. And there are definitely no disparities in power between the modern Tasmanian Aboriginal community and local government-funded institutions.
Presumably, it was similarly OK for the Benin bronzes to be stolen from the descendants of the people who created them by other colonial powers, who could then go on to spend another century spinning stories about the "primitive" culture of Nigeria, while Nigerians couldn't see the exquisite workmanship that their local community developed centuries before, due to the cost and visa issues involved in accessing European museums. After all, the thieves were human, so those bronzes belong to the thieves and their sponsors just as much they belong to the community that created them and had physical possession of them before the looting by the Benin Expedition of 1897.
They are trolling.Squeak wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:31 amI can't begin to fathom the arrogance and ignoring of power disparities that allow an apparently intelligent person to make a statement like this in the context of the examples shared in this thread.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:43 amWe are one humanity. History and culture belongs to all of us.
Presumably if it were aliens or chimps who stole Truganini's body or William Lanne's head, that wouldn't be OK because they're not part of humanity. But because it was the colonial powers who did it, that's OK, because they're human. And there are definitely no disparities in power between the modern Tasmanian Aboriginal community and local government-funded institutions.
Presumably, it was similarly OK for the Benin bronzes to be stolen from the descendants of the people who created them by other colonial powers, who could then go on to spend another century spinning stories about the "primitive" culture of Nigeria, while Nigerians couldn't see the exquisite workmanship that their local community developed centuries before, due to the cost and visa issues involved in accessing European museums. After all, the thieves were human, so those bronzes belong to the thieves and their sponsors just as much they belong to the community that created them and had physical possession of them before the looting by the Benin Expedition of 1897.
So, if we're not one humanity, are we separate but equal or divisible into superior and inferior races?Squeak wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:31 amI can't begin to fathom the arrogance and ignoring of power disparities that allow an apparently intelligent person to make a statement like this in the context of the examples shared in this thread.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:43 amWe are one humanity. History and culture belongs to all of us.
If it were aliens, it migh tbe a little concerned that they had malicious intent and would learn something useful from it, and with chimps, I wouldn't want them to get a taste for human flesh. But other people seem harmless enough. They can have mine once I'm finished using it, if they like, as it'll be no use to me.Presumably if it were aliens or chimps who stole Truganini's body or William Lanne's head, that wouldn't be OK because they're not part of humanity.
It's as ok as any other instance of conquest, of which human history has a vast number.Presumably, it was similarly OK for the Benin bronzes to be stolen from the descendants of the people who created them by other colonial powers,
That was over a hundred years ago. Everyone in that community is dead. Some of their descendants are now British people born and living in the UK, but I'm sure they occasionally get asked where they're "really from".who could then go on to spend another century spinning stories about the "primitive" culture of Nigeria, while Nigerians couldn't see the exquisite workmanship that their local community developed centuries before, due to the cost and visa issues involved in accessing European museums. After all, the thieves were human, so those bronzes belong to the thieves and their sponsors just as much they belong to the community that created them and had physical possession of them before the looting by the Benin Expedition of 1897.
Obviously you continue to troll, but: your two sentences in the former quote are true (or, not arguably untrue) but in no way lead to the conclusion ‘move on, nothing to see here’. If history and culture belongs to all of us, maybe those of us who currently have lots of it ought to redistribute it a bit.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:25 amSo, if we're not one humanity, are we separate but equal or divisible into superior and inferior races?Squeak wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:31 amI can't begin to fathom the arrogance and ignoring of power disparities that allow an apparently intelligent person to make a statement like this in the context of the examples shared in this thread.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:43 amWe are one humanity. History and culture belongs to all of us.
Well, then I'd suggest that the Queen invite Ewuare II around for tea at Buckingham palace, give him a tour, and see if he still feel sore about the bronzes. If so, she could offer him enough of the paintings, furniture, and other valuables to make him happy again. They could have a nice chat about what happened in the reign of a great-great-grandmother and a great-great-grandfather.
Research has too often been done to and about Indigenous peoples, rather than for, with, or by Indigenous peoples (Dalton 2002). The fundamentally colonial and inequitable relationship between Indigenous peoples and the predominantly non- Indigenous research institutions that control access to healthcare and funding is a crucial context for refram- ing the so-called exchanges of gifts in precision medicine. Current policy structures that fund Indigenous health research do not ensure that funding goesdirectly to Indigenous communities, nor do policies ensure that those conducting research on behalf of communities follow procedures to prevent their exploitation...
The structural power imbalance left in the wake of this policy gap is also apparent when Indigenous peoples are offered participation in research initiatives after the terms of participation have been predetermined by research institutions or funding authorities. Indigenous communities and scholars must then choose to accept the imposed terms or risk losing out on research opportunities entirely...
Inclusive research practices must consider the ways that inequitable relationships between Indigenous peoples and scientific fields continue to disproportionately structure the risks and benefits of precision medicine, otherwise they will perpetuate harms and fail to address Indigenous demands for governance of the research that affects them.
the University of Aberdeen announced last month it would repatriate a bust of an Oba, or king of Benin, which it has had since the 1950s. The Horniman Museum in London also confirmed it was taking steps to return artefacts...
The Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology in Cambridge has one of the largest British collections of Benin bronzes. It said if a claim were made, the expectation was that works with an 1897 provenance would be returned. Bristol Museum and Art Gallery said it was “open to all possibilities” and was actively working with Nigerian groups.
Another institution is the Great North Museum in Newcastle upon Tyne. Its executive manager, Caroline McDonald, said the museum’s broader policy was very “pro-repatriation” and that it was researching the origins of one Benin bronze in its possession.
It's unclear how or why the universities came into possession of the bones. The fact the bones are currently missing shows just how little care is given to human remains, though whether they are truly missing or just "missing" as a way to try and avoid the issue is a question I can't answer.Fragments belonging to one or possibly two Black children have been held by the universities for 36 years, but now appear to have gone missing.
They are currently in use as a “case study” in an online forensic anthropology course fronted by Princeton that is openly available on the internet. The bones are shown on camera as teaching tools – without the blessing of relatives who were unaware their loved ones’ remains were harboured in academic collections.
There's now a petition which people may be inclined to sign. It's making the following demands:Fishnut wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:18 amThis story is a reminder that the discussion about human remains in museum and other educational institutions is not a historical debate.
Ivy League colleges urged to apologise for using bones of Black children in teaching
These are bones from children who died in 1985 when US police bombed a residential street. According this piece written last year for the 35th anniversary of the airstrike, the children were aged seven to 13. They were only a few years older than me.
It's unclear how or why the universities came into possession of the bones. The fact the bones are currently missing shows just how little care is given to human remains, though whether they are truly missing or just "missing" as a way to try and avoid the issue is a question I can't answer.Fragments belonging to one or possibly two Black children have been held by the universities for 36 years, but now appear to have gone missing.
They are currently in use as a “case study” in an online forensic anthropology course fronted by Princeton that is openly available on the internet. The bones are shown on camera as teaching tools – without the blessing of relatives who were unaware their loved ones’ remains were harboured in academic collections.
The only one I'm a little hesitant about is the termination of the curator but given her significant association with the remains I do think that questions need to be raised.The immediate return of the remains of Delisha Africa and Tree Africa to The MOVE Family.
An immediate apology by the University of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, the Penn Museum, and Coursera to The MOVE Family and the Black community of Philadelphia for this racist and abhorrent behavior.
Financial reparations to The MOVE Family for the continued harm and trauma caused by Princeton University, the University of Pennsylvania, the Penn Museum, and Coursera, for the profits made by the use of our relatives as teaching tools and research objects.
The immediate removal of all online content in which these remains are used, including the online course Real Bones taught by Janet Monge.
The termination of Janet Monge from her role as curator at the Penn Museum and faculty in the department of anthropology.
The creation of a transparent, public investigation led by a MOVE-approved investigator and funded by the Universities, into how these remains ended up in the Museum’s possession over the past 35 years.
Good. That's a start.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:48 pmThe University has apologised and promised that the bones will be returned.
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/famil ... ng-1962407
Its weird. It looks like the bones were transferred to the university as the bones couldn't identified. So the professor examined the bones and couldn't identify them either. So far so good.Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:58 pmGood. That's a start.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:48 pmThe University has apologised and promised that the bones will be returned.
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/famil ... ng-1962407
That's how I read it. I did begin to wonder if maybe the academics hadn't wanted to hold onto the remains but no-one in the police force wanted them back and with them being unidentified they didn't have anyone to else to turn to so were stuck with them. It seems that may have been the case,Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:37 pmIts weird. It looks like the bones were transferred to the university as the bones couldn't identified. So the professor examined the bones and couldn't identify them either. So far so good.Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:58 pmGood. That's a start.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:48 pmThe University has apologised and promised that the bones will be returned.
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/famil ... ng-1962407
But then they decided to keep them. Like what the f.ck. "Don't know who they were from so we'll just keep them". Sometimes I really don't understand people.
That said, the statement from the Penn Museum is a bit hmmm,Mann told the Inquirer last week that he has not seen them in more than a decade.
“I would’ve given them back years ago, if anyone had asked me,” the Princeton-based anthropologist told the paper. “There’s absolutely no reason for us to keep them. They should be given back.”
That really doesn't sound like a particularly complicated process - find a respectful and appropriate container for them (i.e. not a cardboard box) and give them back to the family. I'm not sure what a "consultative resolution" means but it sounds like lawyer speak and my internal cynic says it means "we need to get it in writing they won't sue us before we give them back".We understand the importance of reuniting the remains with the family, and we are working now to find a respectful, consultative resolution.
According to this NPR article,
So I think there's been some muddled reporting. I was under the mistaken impression the remains had been given to Dr Mann for identification, not for "further analysis".A forensic pathologist produced reports on the human remains found in the debris, including two sets of bones identified as belonging to Tree Africa, 14, and Delisha Africa, 12... After an investigation into the bombing, the remains were given to anthropologist Alan Mann by the city Medical Examiner's Office, according to the MOVE Philadelphia Special Investigation Commission letters, for further analysis.
Well, if you go back far enough it certainly wasn't a one-off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_hareFishnut wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:02 pmI honestly can't imagine how I'd feel if my sister had been killed in a government bombing and then found out that not only were her remains not returned to the family but had been used by academics as a teaching tool, a curiosity and kept in a cardboard box somewhere. It's got echos of the Alder Hey organs scandal and does make me wonder if this is a one-off or if there's a habit of universities retaining human remains from recently-deceased people when presented the opportunity.
According to this article,In 2018, images of water dripping into the gallery housing the frieze and sculptures from the Parthenon were widely spread in the media, leading to Greek Culture Minister Lina Mendoni once more expressing the demand that the iconic sculptures be returned to Greece. The museum then claimed that the issue had been addressed.
Seven galleries of Greek art, including the museum’s display of Parthenon sculptures, were expected to reopen to the public at the end of July following a seven-month closure, museum sources say.
But this was pushed back after heavy rainfall on 25 July caused flooding in central London and led to water leaking into one of the museum’s Greek galleries, sources say.
A British Museum spokeswoman confirmed that “there was some water ingress in one of the [Greek] galleries” in July but said she could not identify the specific gallery. She also could not say when the displays might reopen.
That’s excuse number three. The PR people will be quiet about that for a while and instead use excuses 2 and 4.Fishnut wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:49 amOne of the oldest arguments that's given for why the British Museum shouldn't give back dubiously-acquired and outright stolen objects is that they look after them better than museums in their country of origin can. It's been a long-standing argument for the Parthenon marbles in particular, despite Greece now having a purpose-built state-of-the-art museum to house them. So you'll imagine my surprise when I saw this article claiming that the gallery housing the marbles, which is currently "closed until further notice", is closed because the roof is leaking and rain has been getting in. This isn't even the first time this has happened,According to this article,In 2018, images of water dripping into the gallery housing the frieze and sculptures from the Parthenon were widely spread in the media, leading to Greek Culture Minister Lina Mendoni once more expressing the demand that the iconic sculptures be returned to Greece. The museum then claimed that the issue had been addressed.
Seven galleries of Greek art, including the museum’s display of Parthenon sculptures, were expected to reopen to the public at the end of July following a seven-month closure, museum sources say.
But this was pushed back after heavy rainfall on 25 July caused flooding in central London and led to water leaking into one of the museum’s Greek galleries, sources say.
A British Museum spokeswoman confirmed that “there was some water ingress in one of the [Greek] galleries” in July but said she could not identify the specific gallery. She also could not say when the displays might reopen.