Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
bjn
Dorkwood
Posts: 1106
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by bjn » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:33 pm

I need to draft a full reply to EPD, but currently don't have the mental bandwidth. But very briefly, I am not asking the women here, nor in my personal life, to change how they talk about sexism and their experiences of it. I was commenting on a specific bit of spam from a website that a poster here received which I thought was very poorly worded, using it as an example of how not to get men on board, as it manifestly did not work. I was not intending for it to be interpreted that all women need to work harder, that they should not be angry. The women on this board (and the old place), have been justifiably and obviously blazingly furious and I hope haven't felt the need to modify their words.

So, how to you thing men should be reached? How do you convince them "to do more work"? Because if they aren't convinced it won't spontaneously happen.

My mistake here was to dis the headline rather than engage more directly with individualmember as to what put him off about it.

User avatar
individualmember
Snowbonk
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by individualmember » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:55 pm

bjn wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:33 pm
My mistake here was to dis the headline rather than engage more directly with individualmember as to what put him off about it.
TBH, my outburst was a ‘last straw which broke the camel’s back’ moment, after a lifetime (well I’m 58 and don’t remember a time before this was central to my being, which feels like a lifetime) of anger about assumptions being made about me on the basis of what you see when you look at me, being particularly concerned about this issue since roughly the early 1990s, the frustration at being powerless to do anything and that seemingly no progress has been made in all these years, all got on top of me and I descended into a dark mental place.

My emotional condition is where this came from, not the article. My exasperation at constantly being told the same things and never being able to move on from it because the moment you try, you get dragged back. Not on this forum, but everywhere else in my life, this forum is the one place of sanity I have and I’m very sorry to have offended anyone.

I’ve never been to a university, it’s twenty years since I worked in an office of any kind, I rarely attend meetings, I know that I project my anger into my assumptions about women and BAME because I assume that they have far more right than I do to be angry about assumptions because the general level of that problem hurts them more than a white man like me. And I’m ashamed of myself for doing it.

It’s not the article, it’s me.

nezumi
Snowbonk
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:43 pm
Location: UK

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by nezumi » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:13 pm

individualmember wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:55 pm


My emotional condition is where this came from, not the article. My exasperation at constantly being told the same things and never being able to move on from it because the moment you try, you get dragged back. Not on this forum, but everywhere else in my life, this forum is the one place of sanity I have and I’m very sorry to have offended anyone.
Not offended, just concerned mate :)
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.

User avatar
Fishnut
Dorkwood
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by Fishnut » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:25 pm

jdc wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:41 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:35 pm
The trouble with having next to nothing you feel you can contribute to a large and wide-ranging discussion but feeling you'd at least like to just to chip in occasionally on some small point or other is that that can look exactly the same as if you were ignoring the entire conversation and just nitpicking some tiny detail. So, memo to myself; maybe don't keep doing that.
Maybe the cowards among us could take on the job of finding articles to read and post here, and let braver souls kick off the discussion of those pieces.
Excellent idea!
it's okay to say "I don't know"

User avatar
individualmember
Snowbonk
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by individualmember » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:31 pm

nezumi wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:13 pm
individualmember wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:55 pm


My emotional condition is where this came from, not the article. My exasperation at constantly being told the same things and never being able to move on from it because the moment you try, you get dragged back. Not on this forum, but everywhere else in my life, this forum is the one place of sanity I have and I’m very sorry to have offended anyone.
Not offended, just concerned mate :)
Thanks.

The white coats and straightjacket can go back in the cupboard for the time being.

nezumi
Snowbonk
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:43 pm
Location: UK

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by nezumi » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:41 pm

individualmember wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:31 pm
nezumi wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:13 pm
individualmember wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:55 pm


My emotional condition is where this came from, not the article. My exasperation at constantly being told the same things and never being able to move on from it because the moment you try, you get dragged back. Not on this forum, but everywhere else in my life, this forum is the one place of sanity I have and I’m very sorry to have offended anyone.
Not offended, just concerned mate :)
Thanks.

The white coats and straightjacket can go back in the cupboard for the time being.
Awwwwww but the swing is all strung up....
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.

User avatar
Fishnut
Dorkwood
Posts: 1075
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by Fishnut » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:42 pm

This might be of interest to people here. Hay Festival's book of the month is Male Tears by Benjamin Myers. There's a Q&A with the author on 27th April which is free to attend.
From the acclaimed author of bestseller The Offing comes a debut collection of short stories investigating modern masculinity in all its many and varied forms. Bringing together over fifteen years of work, Benjamin Myers lays bare the male psyche in all its fragility, complexity and failure, its hubris and forbidden tenderness. Farmers, fairground workers and wandering pilgrims, gruesome gamekeepers, bare-knuckle boxers and ex-cons with secret passions, the men that populate these unsettling, wild and wistful stories form a multi-faceted, era-spanning portrait of just what it means to be a man.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

User avatar
discovolante
After Pie
Posts: 2491
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by discovolante » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:00 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:42 pm
This might be of interest to people here. Hay Festival's book of the month is Male Tears by Benjamin Myers. There's a Q&A with the author on 27th April which is free to attend.
From the acclaimed author of bestseller The Offing comes a debut collection of short stories investigating modern masculinity in all its many and varied forms. Bringing together over fifteen years of work, Benjamin Myers lays bare the male psyche in all its fragility, complexity and failure, its hubris and forbidden tenderness. Farmers, fairground workers and wandering pilgrims, gruesome gamekeepers, bare-knuckle boxers and ex-cons with secret passions, the men that populate these unsettling, wild and wistful stories form a multi-faceted, era-spanning portrait of just what it means to be a man.
Can't say anything about Male Tears because I ain't read it, but one of his other books, The Gallows Pole, is fantastic.
socialism is when the government does stuff

monkey
Snowbonk
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by monkey » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:42 pm

jdc wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:41 pm
Maybe the cowards among us could take on the job of finding articles to read and post here, and let braver souls kick off the discussion of those pieces.
In the spirit of this comment, I'd like to submit this piece. The fact that seemingly nice guys can also be creeps or worse has come up on one of the threads before. I'm posting because I think it provides a good reminder of this.

clicky

A quote:
But too often, we – the media – blur those lines. We see players in locker rooms and develop relationships with them in these safe, controlled, contrived spaces. We think we know them. We learn about their lives, their families, their hobbies, and we forget. We forget that we don’t really know them even a little bit, that it’s not our job to automatically give them the benefit of the doubt.
While the article is about a sports player, I'm pretty sure this applies to many people in our more normal lives.

User avatar
nekomatic
Snowbonk
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by nekomatic » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:51 pm

Thank you again to everyone who’s contributed here, I’m listening as I hope others are.

User avatar
jdc
Hilda Ogden
Posts: 876
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:31 pm
Location: Your Mum
Contact:

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by jdc » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:22 pm

monkey wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:42 pm
jdc wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:41 pm
Maybe the cowards among us could take on the job of finding articles to read and post here, and let braver souls kick off the discussion of those pieces.
In the spirit of this comment, I'd like to submit this piece. The fact that seemingly nice guys can also be creeps or worse has come up on one of the threads before. I'm posting because I think it provides a good reminder of this.

clicky

A quote:
But too often, we – the media – blur those lines. We see players in locker rooms and develop relationships with them in these safe, controlled, contrived spaces. We think we know them. We learn about their lives, their families, their hobbies, and we forget. We forget that we don’t really know them even a little bit, that it’s not our job to automatically give them the benefit of the doubt.
While the article is about a sports player, I'm pretty sure this applies to many people in our more normal lives.
Interesting piece. I think there's two elements with those examples. There's the expectation that someone with a 'nice' public persona will be nice in private too (which applies generally as you say) but also there's the halo effect of 'good at x = good person'. The golden boy who can do no wrong.

User avatar
individualmember
Snowbonk
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space

Post by individualmember » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:54 pm

Working in telly, I’ve met quite a few people who you’d recognise from being on the screen. Enough to say confidently that there’s no way of knowing whether what you see on the screen is anything like what they’re like in real life unless you spend some time with them off screen. Some are like their screen persona, or at least the persona they project is a slightly exaggerated version of themselves, but plenty aren’t (ETA some are much nicer than you imagine, it’s not all terrible people pretending to be nice). And to be fair I’ve had good experience with some and then heard that they are different in different company, n=1 anecdote of course but I’ve seen blokes off the telly be good company as one of a handful of blokes in a pub after work but patronising bastards to women. To be fair I don’t like socialising with the ‘talent’ much and don’t have close friendships with any.

Post Reply