Re: Rewilding and habitat restoration
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:46 pm
I think the nature depletion stat comes from NHM research a year or so ago, e.g. https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/202 ... nment.html
Awesome, thanks!Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:46 pmI think the nature depletion stat comes from NHM research a year or so ago, e.g. https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/202 ... nment.html
You might be interested in reading The Poor Had No Lawyers by Andy Wightman (about Scotland) (but don't necessarily get into his more recent political skirmishes) and maybe also Who Owns England by Guy Shrubsole, which is nowhere near as good as TPHNL imo but it's sort of the equivalent so I thought I ought to mention it...pretty sure we have had this discussion before though!Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:11 pmI listened to an episode of the History Extra podcast on trespass earlier and it felt really relevant to this discussion. We live in a country where all the land is owned and if you don't own it, you're not allowed on it. It's led to a real disconnect with nature for the majority of people who don't own land and a lack of responsibility and accountability for those who do.
It does ring a bell as I remember your cautioning against Wightman's more recent stuff! I've added his book to my ever-expanding reading list. Shrubsole's was already on it. One of the things that was mentioned in the podcast was that Scotland's trespass laws are different to England's and allow people to access private land as long as they don't damage it.discovolante wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:23 pmYou might be interested in reading The Poor Had No Lawyers by Andy Wightman (about Scotland) (but don't necessarily get into his more recent political skirmishes) and maybe also Who Owns England by Guy Shrubsole, which is nowhere near as good as TPHNL imo but it's sort of the equivalent so I thought I ought to mention it...pretty sure we have had this discussion before though!Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:11 pmI listened to an episode of the History Extra podcast on trespass earlier and it felt really relevant to this discussion. We live in a country where all the land is owned and if you don't own it, you're not allowed on it. It's led to a real disconnect with nature for the majority of people who don't own land and a lack of responsibility and accountability for those who do.
Right to Roam (as it's called) in Scotland is a pretty big 'thing' and I'm not really exaggerating by saying it has genuinely positively affected my quality of life. It's not that nobody abuses it but they must be a minority. It would be interesting to see some sort of comparative research into the impact of it in Scotland vs England (and Wales?)...probably out there somewhere but I haven't looked out for it. I also wonder if its existence inhibits public understanding of just how horribly concentrated and inequitable land ownership in Scotland actually is.Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:28 pmIt does ring a bell as I remember your cautioning against Wightman's more recent stuff! I've added his book to my ever-expanding reading list. Shrubsole's was already on it. One of the things that was mentioned in the podcast was that Scotland's trespass laws are different to England's and allow people to access private land as long as they don't damage it.discovolante wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:23 pmYou might be interested in reading The Poor Had No Lawyers by Andy Wightman (about Scotland) (but don't necessarily get into his more recent political skirmishes) and maybe also Who Owns England by Guy Shrubsole, which is nowhere near as good as TPHNL imo but it's sort of the equivalent so I thought I ought to mention it...pretty sure we have had this discussion before though!Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:11 pmI listened to an episode of the History Extra podcast on trespass earlier and it felt really relevant to this discussion. We live in a country where all the land is owned and if you don't own it, you're not allowed on it. It's led to a real disconnect with nature for the majority of people who don't own land and a lack of responsibility and accountability for those who do.
That is surely just scaremongering nonsense.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:52 amI think you'll enjoy this piece, Fishnut...The need for rewilding is no longer a matter of debate. The UN’s leading scientists have done the maths and the task is vast and urgent.
An area the size of China needs to be returned to nature by 2030 to avoid the collapse of our life support systems. If we want to live, we need to rewild.
The UK led the Industrial Revolution, so no suprise that that caused a swing away from nature. And given that it is in the state claimed, it seems a poor use of resources to try to unwind that far back. Why not instead take a (possibly much larger) area in some other part of the world and restore that?The UK is one of the ‘most nature depleted’ nations on the planet and we the public have shown overwhelming support for the restoration of this missing nature. So surely a rewilding revolution is all but inevitable?
Britain has its own wildlife that’s worth improving habitat for, as well as lots of migratory birds and insects so improving habitat here could have much wider benefits.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:13 amThat is surely just scaremongering nonsense.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:52 amI think you'll enjoy this piece, Fishnut...The need for rewilding is no longer a matter of debate. The UN’s leading scientists have done the maths and the task is vast and urgent.
An area the size of China needs to be returned to nature by 2030 to avoid the collapse of our life support systems. If we want to live, we need to rewild.
The UK led the Industrial Revolution, so no suprise that that caused a swing away from nature. And given that it is in the state claimed, it seems a poor use of resources to try to unwind that far back. Why not instead take a (possibly much larger) area in some other part of the world and restore that?The UK is one of the ‘most nature depleted’ nations on the planet and we the public have shown overwhelming support for the restoration of this missing nature. So surely a rewilding revolution is all but inevitable?
Further to this, we are a rich country so can afford (should we choose to) to experiment and test what restoration methods work best for a wide range of habitats. And let's not forget that the land that is being rewilded won't be available for economic use in the same way - asking other (mostly poorer) countries to make that sacrifice but not making it ourselves is hypocritical. Almost half the land committed to restoration projects is in sub-Saharan Africa. Europe has committed barely anything. We need to stop treating these global problems as problems for "over there". They're problems here too, and need tackling here.Grumble wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:56 amMillennie Al wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:13 amBritain has its own wildlife that’s worth improving habitat for, as well as lots of migratory birds and insects so improving habitat here could have much wider benefits.
The UK led the Industrial Revolution, so no suprise that that caused a swing away from nature. And given that it is in the state claimed, it seems a poor use of resources to try to unwind that far back. Why not instead take a (possibly much larger) area in some other part of the world and restore that?
GB is actually rather better than a lot of places. We can enter and roam over extensive areas of land, regardless of ownership. In England and Wales, there is also an extensive rights of way network of paths, bridleways and other by-ways that supplements the public roads networkdiscovolante wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:38 pmRight to Roam (as it's called) in Scotland is a pretty big 'thing' and I'm not really exaggerating by saying it has genuinely positively affected my quality of life. It's not that nobody abuses it but they must be a minority.Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:28 pmWe live in a country where all the land is owned and if you don't own it, you're not allowed on it. It's led to a real disconnect with nature for the majority of people who don't own land and a lack of responsibility and accountability for those who do.
... Scotland's trespass laws are different to England's and allow people to access private land as long as they don't damage it.
Further to this, we are a rich country so can afford (should we choose to) to experiment and test what restoration methods work best for a wide range of habitats. And let's not forget that the land that is being rewilded won't be available for economic use in the same way - asking other (mostly poorer) countries to make that sacrifice but not making it ourselves is hypocritical. Almost half the land committed to restoration projects is in sub-Saharan Africa. Europe has committed barely anything. We need to stop treating these global problems as problems for "over there". They're problems here too, and need tackling here.
We have the right to roam on only 8% of the countryside and 3% of our rivers. As Right to Roam point out,IvanV wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:47 pmGB is actually rather better than a lot of places. We can enter and roam over extensive areas of land, regardless of ownership. In England and Wales, there is also an extensive rights of way network of paths, bridleways and other by-ways that supplements the public roads networkdiscovolante wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:38 pmRight to Roam (as it's called) in Scotland is a pretty big 'thing' and I'm not really exaggerating by saying it has genuinely positively affected my quality of life. It's not that nobody abuses it but they must be a minority.Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:28 pmWe live in a country where all the land is owned and if you don't own it, you're not allowed on it. It's led to a real disconnect with nature for the majority of people who don't own land and a lack of responsibility and accountability for those who do.
... Scotland's trespass laws are different to England's and allow people to access private land as long as they don't damage it.
Wild camping is illegal in England except for parts of Dartmoor.In all but one tenth of the English landscape, to wander off the footpath, to swim in a river, to explore and educate ourselves about our countryside, can leave us branded a trespasser and expelled from the land.
Clearly it can be better. But let us first appreciate that we are doing pretty well. It's not a big problem. Other places, eg Ireland, it is a huge problem. And there can be problems with over-liberal laws, as I will set out later in this post, and a risk of over-reaction to those problems.Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:42 amWe have the right to roam on only 8% of the countryside and 3% of our rivers. As Right to Roam point out,IvanV wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:47 pmGB is actually rather better than a lot of places. We can enter and roam over extensive areas of land, regardless of ownership. In England and Wales, there is also an extensive rights of way network of paths, bridleways and other by-ways that supplements the public roads networkWild camping is illegal in England except for parts of Dartmoor.In all but one tenth of the English landscape, to wander off the footpath, to swim in a river, to explore and educate ourselves about our countryside, can leave us branded a trespasser and expelled from the land.
We have a great network of footpaths and bridleways but that's not enough. We need greater access to our countryside. Sure, there will be some areas, particularly those close to cities, where restrictions are needed to ensure that damage isn't done to crops or livestock, but for vast areas there'd be minimal impact but it would allow people to explore and engage with nature in a way that rarely happens currently.
“Everywhere is busier than I’ve ever seen it before: the roads, the car parks, the shops, cafes, but also outside on the countryside, on the paths there’s more people than I’ve ever seen before,” she said. “And the erosion is happening faster than I’ve ever seen it happen before.”
On some popular walks, 2 metre-wide paths have become “at least 12 metres wide,” Backshall said, as crowds have jostled for space and given others a wide berth because of social distancing. A section of pathway of only 300 metres can cost nearly £45,000 to fix, with helicopters sometimes required to drop in huge blocks of stone.
Social media has played a part. “Our lakes became beaches. Random waterfalls went viral on Instagram and everyone turned up,” said Tony Watson, the head of visitor services at the Lake District National Park, earlier this year.
Well I guess you are going to have problems if you're faced with an unprecedented and rapidly emerging situation without having had the opportunity to create infrastructure and rules to manage it properly.shpalman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:59 pmLake District in peril due to climate emergency and influx of pandemic walkers
“Everywhere is busier than I’ve ever seen it before: the roads, the car parks, the shops, cafes, but also outside on the countryside, on the paths there’s more people than I’ve ever seen before,” she said. “And the erosion is happening faster than I’ve ever seen it happen before.”
On some popular walks, 2 metre-wide paths have become “at least 12 metres wide,” Backshall said, as crowds have jostled for space and given others a wide berth because of social distancing. A section of pathway of only 300 metres can cost nearly £45,000 to fix, with helicopters sometimes required to drop in huge blocks of stone.Social media has played a part. “Our lakes became beaches. Random waterfalls went viral on Instagram and everyone turned up,” said Tony Watson, the head of visitor services at the Lake District National Park, earlier this year.
As pointed out in the bit you quoted, there is a general right to roam in Scotland. The 8% is of England.Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:42 amWe have the right to roam on only 8% of the countryside and 3% of our rivers. As Right to Roam point out,discovolante wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:38 pm
Right to Roam (as it's called) in Scotland is a pretty big 'thing'
but the link points to a page which says97% of rivers are off limits to the public
which is rather different from "off limits to the public". righttoroam.org.uk do not seem to be a reliable source of information.British Canoeing believes that there is a strong case to demonstrate an existing public right of navigation (PRN) on all navigable rivers.
Until such time that the law is clarified, either in court, or through legislation being enacted, British Canoeing will campaign on behalf of the public, for fair, shared, sustainable open access on water.
I was. I was talking specifically in relation to the podcast I linked to which has the very prominent blurb,discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:24 amPretty sure she was talking about England specifically, it was others who started conflating it with the whole of Great Britain and then comparing it with other countries...
However, I now realise that I made a mistake in expecting anyone to actually click on that link before replying which is entirely my fault.Nick Hayes discusses the contested history of land ownership in England, from William the Conqueror to the Kinder trespass.
A paper has just come out looking at Pleistocene Park and a couple of other Siberian rewilding sites. I've not had time to read it in detail yet, but it is open access https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92079-1IvanV wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:33 pmMany thanks for those interesting and thoughtful posts.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:16 pmI've been painting quite a rosy picture of the science.
Here is an excellent essay on the politics and economics, in a UK context, where the picture is considerably less rosy. Carver and Convery argue that, having been catapulted into the limelight, "rewilding" has increasingly been co-opted as a buzzword and diluted as a concept, essentially being used to greenwash the same old failed neoliberal model of piecemeal, heavily-managed conservation:
I read about this Russian "rewilding" project a while ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_Park I wondered what you thought about it. Is it bonkers? If it's not bonkers, is it being unfortunately limited by being underfunded? Or what?
To me, 16 sq km seems like a very small area given the vast land areas up there, and the typical large range needs, and often migratory habits, of large animals in such habitats. I was entertained to learn that some of the released creatures escaped from the reserve pretty quickly and are presumably populating the wider area, if they were able to survive.
If nothing else, it's a useful example of why mass tree planting is generally not super helpful. The trees need to be cared for over s long period of time, but funding evaporates after whatever bigwigs involved have had their photo-op with a spade.Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:06 pmI'm hesitant to post this in this thread but it seems the least worst option. My hesitation comes from the fact I'm not really sure this counts as habitat restoration, even though it's mass tree planting. Or, it was. Now it's a massive tree graveyard. My first impressions are that it was likely always an unsustainable vanity project, and the fact that less than 10 years after the area was first planted it was chosen as the perfect location for "the world’s largest shopping centre" and then, after that project stalled, for a new city, only reinforces that view. Still, I'm sure someone made a lot of money which is really all that matters.
Weaving is one of that odd selection of things I have taken an interest in, from my time in Bolivia. Tapestry is a relatively simple way creating a woven image, in terms of the construction of the fabric, it is about as simple as it could be. At the same time, it is one of the techniques that requires the greatest skill and effort in its creation. Mediaeval tapestries were among the most costly items a mediaeval oligarch could own. A bit like painting. Smearing paint on canvas is a very simple method of creating an image on a surface, in terms of its construction. But requiring very considerable skill in execution. Indeed it is often said that tapestry is like painting in thread.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:54 pm*Perhaps. I realised after I wrote that sentence that I don't actually know how tapestries work in much detail
While it's a partisan analysis, it is based on sensible data:Rewilding 5% of England could create nearly 20,000 jobs in rural communities and increase employment by 50% compared with intensive farming, figures show.
Hybrid roles in animal husbandry and ecology, positions in nature tourism and specialist roles in species reintroductions could be among the new positions, according to analysis from Rewilding Britain, alongside benefits for biodiversity and the climate.
The drive to restore nature on a large scale in the UK’s landscapes has sparked fears of job losses in the agriculture community owing to perceived links to abandoning farmland and halting food production.
But Prof Alastair Driver, the director of Rewilding Britain who put together the figures, said the analysis showed rewilding on marginal land could increase employment without stopping traditional agricultural activities.
I'd say that as rewilding takes off, and support for industrial agriculture wanes, the number of jobs gained is likely to be even more significant. Similarly, reintroductions of exciting species would massively increase desire for UK-based wildlife tourism (just as covid and the climate emergency might lessen foreign travel). Thousands of people go all the way to Mull to see eagles (pdf) - the potential for wolf safaris or lynx watchpoints must be enormous.The projection is based on detailed surveys of 27 large rewilding sites in England, totalling about 29,162 hectares (72,062 acres) of marginal land in the charity’s network of estates, farms and conservation areas.
On the sites, positions in education, livestock management and restoration activities were created, according to analysis of the responses, alongside a ninefold increase in volunteering positions.
The area represents about 0.2% of England and the job gains have been extrapolated to 5% of England. The charity’s goal is to rewild 5% of Britain.
“We are only scratching the surface in terms of nature-based tourism in this country. Diversification will increase resilience in the face of trade deals, tariffs and the future of farming,” Driver said.
Good luck to them. I don't have any expectation of seeing lynx or wolves if they are reintroduced. They are hard enough to see where they have been long established and at maximum density.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:02 pmThousands of people go all the way to Mull to see eagles (pdf) - the potential for wolf safaris or lynx watchpoints must be enormous.