ID cards

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Millennie Al
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Re: ID cards

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:36 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:10 pm
#1 daughter is 30 next week but still takes great delight in telling us every time she gets carded for buying alcohol. That makes me wonder what the average 18 year old in the UK uses for that, given that many people (and, disproportionately, those from poorer backgrounds) don't have driving licences.
Possibly one of these: https://www.pass-scheme.org.uk/card-suppliers/ which is a mixture of free cards and paid ones.
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Millennie Al
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Re: ID cards

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:39 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:34 pm
I would be happy for it to remain voluntary initially, but if the government wanted to make it mandatory to show officiai ID to vote at the next general election and gave people enough notice to apply for it, I don't see why it couldn't be required for that.

It could also become the basis of a truly progressive secure online identity system.
In other words we should start an ID card scheme so that it can be the thin and of the wedge to introduce more and more stuff. Not exectly a convincing argument!

And to address your point about voting, it should not be required for voting because it is not necessary and there is no excuse for introducing extra unnecessary restrictions on voting.
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Millennie Al
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Re: ID cards

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:44 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:01 pm
when someone calls to check if I'm in before they make a delivery, for example, they say "Hola, ¿Nicholas?" and not "Hola, ¿Sr. Brown?", because when they arrive they will just confirm my number.
Why do they check your number? In the UK deliveries are to addresses, not people, so anyone on the premises at the time of delivery can accept it (possibly providing a signature, but not even that most of the time).
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Woodchopper
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Re: ID cards

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:32 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:44 am
sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:01 pm
when someone calls to check if I'm in before they make a delivery, for example, they say "Hola, ¿Nicholas?" and not "Hola, ¿Sr. Brown?", because when they arrive they will just confirm my number.
Why do they check your number? In the UK deliveries are to addresses, not people, so anyone on the premises at the time of delivery can accept it (possibly providing a signature, but not even that most of the time).
That'll be for the high value items, like the cases of champagne and caviar that we all get from the Big Pharma.

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shpalman
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Re: ID cards

Post by shpalman » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:49 am

Well I've never been asked for ID when accepting a delivery at home (although at work the courier might ask my name just so the tracking information on the website can be updated to say "ACCEPTED BY SLPAMAN") but of course I need ID to pick something up from the post office.

I don't remember needing my ID for anything recently, but then I can't remember if I'm arguing against people who say you don't need ID cards because you never need ID for anything, or people who say ID cards are bad because you'll end up needing them for everything.
molto tricky

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Rich Scopie
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Re: ID cards

Post by Rich Scopie » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:00 am

Morrison's via Amazon wanted to see ID for a delivery the other week. Admittedly, it was entirely beer, but I was a bit surprised.
It first was a rumour dismissed as a lie, but then came the evidence none could deny:
a double page spread in the Sunday Express — the Russians are running the DHSS!

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Sciolus
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Re: ID cards

Post by Sciolus » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:58 am

It sounds rather as though ID cards are a solution looking for a problem. Indeed recent posts show that the slippery slope does exist: introduce cards for legitimate purposes and they'll end up being required for spurious reasons.

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Re: ID cards

Post by dyqik » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:12 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:58 am
It sounds rather as though ID cards are a solution looking for a problem. Indeed recent posts show that the slippery slope does exist: introduce cards for legitimate purposes and they'll end up being required for spurious reasons.
We don't have ID cards here, and the slippery slope of requiring ID for spurious reasons has already been gone down. The same has already happened in the UK, as is well documented in this thread, including by the post right above yours. And that's the problem that free universal ID cards are the solution to.

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Re: ID cards

Post by nekomatic » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:29 pm

I’ve read Rich’s post a couple of times now and I still can’t see the bit where he said it was a problem. Proving your age in order to receive a delivery of an age-restricted item is a use case adequately covered by types of ID that already exist.

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Re: ID cards

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:48 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:29 pm
Proving your age in order to receive a delivery of an age-restricted item is a use case adequately covered by types of ID that already exist.
Only if you hold one of those types of ID. What does an 18-year-old with no driving licence or passport do?
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Re: ID cards

Post by dyqik » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:51 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:48 pm
nekomatic wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:29 pm
Proving your age in order to receive a delivery of an age-restricted item is a use case adequately covered by types of ID that already exist.
Only if you hold one of those types of ID. What does an 18-year-old with no driving licence or passport do?
Yes. The responses here stink of privilege and lack of imagination.

And even if you do have a driver's license, you still need several forms of ID and proof of address to do things like rent a car. And that's getting harder with more bills going paperless.

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Re: ID cards

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:56 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:51 pm
And that's getting harder with more bills going paperless.
Every bank, utility company, and government department: "Yay! We're going paperless! From now on we will only send PDFs! Save the planet!"

Also every bank, utility company, and government department: "Please send three proofs of address, on original letterhead paper. Printouts of a PDF you did at home are not acceptable."
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Sciolus
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Re: ID cards

Post by Sciolus » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:17 pm

Proof of age is a different problem from proof of ID, and an ID card is overkill for proof of age. For most people, proof of age can be achieved with sufficient accuracy by just looking at the person. For the rest of the population, proof of age cards are available that do not require the full might of an ID database.

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Re: ID cards

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:07 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:17 pm
For the rest of the population, proof of age cards are available that do not require the full might of an ID database.
Yeah, they cost £15. And to get one you either need a passport, a driving licence, an EU ID card, or a "trusted" person who is prepared to vouch for your identity. In other words, a database containing precisely the same information as any national ID card system would have, but run by a private company. What could possibly go wrong?
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Rich Scopie
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Re: ID cards

Post by Rich Scopie » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:37 am

nekomatic wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:29 pm
I’ve read Rich’s post a couple of times now and I still can’t see the bit where he said it was a problem. Proving your age in order to receive a delivery of an age-restricted item is a use case adequately covered by types of ID that already exist.
Sorry - I didn't mean to imply it was a problem. Just that I've never been asked for ID for delivery of anything, including booze before.

Had it been for my girlfriend, that could have been a problem, as she has neither driving license nor passport.

If I recall correctly, the last time a national ID card scheme was introduced in the UK, it was entirely voluntary, and you had to pay for it, but it was sold as being a form of ID that would be universally accepted. Trouble was, hardly anyone did accept it, and it was quietly withdrawn.
It first was a rumour dismissed as a lie, but then came the evidence none could deny:
a double page spread in the Sunday Express — the Russians are running the DHSS!

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Re: ID cards

Post by individualmember » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:42 am

nekomatic wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:29 pm
I’ve read Rich’s post a couple of times now and I still can’t see the bit where he said it was a problem. Proving your age in order to receive a delivery of an age-restricted item is a use case adequately covered by types of ID that already exist.
I generally find that proof of age is adequately dealt with by a patronising smile and the words “oh that is soooooooo sweet”.

Millennie Al
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Re: ID cards

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:32 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:07 pm
Sciolus wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:17 pm
For the rest of the population, proof of age cards are available that do not require the full might of an ID database.
Yeah, they cost £15. And to get one you either need a passport, a driving licence, an EU ID card, or a "trusted" person who is prepared to vouch for your identity. In other words, a database containing precisely the same information as any national ID card system would have, but run by a private company. What could possibly go wrong?
That's just one of them. The Young Scot card (https://young.scot/the-young-scot-card) is free and does not require a pre-existing ID (see the FAQ for what is required).

Note that when such a scheme is run by a private company, you need to be worried that the data might fall into the wrong hands. With a government scheme you have no such worry as it is already there.
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Re: ID cards

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:04 am

The Young Scot card is issued by local authorities.

Would local governments issuing ID be better than national ones? (Much like the US having state rather than national ID cards)
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Re: ID cards

Post by shpalman » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:25 am

In Italy the ID card is issued by the local council, while the passport (and foreigners' permit to stay) is issued by the local police inspectorate (questura).
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Woodchopper
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Re: ID cards

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:29 am

shpalman wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:25 am
In Italy the ID card is issued by the local council, while the passport (and foreigners' permit to stay) is issued by the local police inspectorate (questura).
For the ID cards, is that as part of a national system and the council does the paperwork, or does each council have its own system?

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Re: ID cards

Post by shpalman » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:38 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:29 am
shpalman wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:25 am
In Italy the ID card is issued by the local council, while the passport (and foreigners' permit to stay) is issued by the local police inspectorate (questura).
For the ID cards, is that as part of a national system and the council does the paperwork, or does each council have its own system?
You're already in the council system (the "anagraph") when you go there to tell them that you're now resident in their council (and the council check that you are paying the rubbish collection tax to them, and sometimes they might even send someone around to where you live to check that you live there), but I expect this is connected to a national system.

So for the old paper ID all you had to do was show up with photos and since they already have you in their system they could make you an ID card. For other applications, they can produce a document which attests that your residence is in their system.

The new ID card is in the standard European biometric credit-card format and I haven't tried to get one of those yet; first I should get the special biometric permit-of-stay card for British citizens from the questura. For that, I will need to prove that I was resident here before 31/12/2020 i.e. using the document which attests that my residence is in the council's system which I'd handily asked for in November for my UK passport renewal; otherwise I don't see why my ID card doesn't attest that. But this does highlight how the police don't necessarily have direct access to that information.
molto tricky

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