Mocking religion

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shpalman
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by shpalman » Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:28 am

Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:54 am
Catholics generally view the bible as poetic guidance rather than absolute truth, it’s Protestants who take it literally. (Large amounts of hand-waving.)
<waves large hands>

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by IvanV » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:42 am

bob sterman wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:10 pm
IvanV wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:07 pm
Simply due to maths, its difficult for very poor countries to be very unequal.
Errr..not that difficult, some GINI values...

From the dozen most unequal countries in the world...

Namibia 59.1
Central African Republic 56.2
Angola 51.3

From the dozen most equal countries...

Iceland 26.1
Belgium 27.2
United Arab Emirates 26.0
Angola (nom GDP per capita $2000) and Namibia (nom GDP per cap $9500) are precisely the the kind of SSA countries that can be very unequal because they have average incomes per capita substantially above survival level, but nevertheless have lots of people living close to survival level. Economically, Namibia is a bit like an extension of South Africa. Angola is precisely a notorious case of high oil revenues concentrated on a wealthy sub-economy, standing alongside widespread poverty. Luanda is one of the world's most expensive cities to live in. Equatorial Guinea and Gabon are similar egregious cases.

CAR is surprising. Its nominal GDP per capita is $448, ie, close to survival level. If we attribute a survival income to people who survive, how is there enough left for a sufficient amount of wealth to be concentrated to create a high Gini coefficient? The economy is dominated by the production of subsistence crops. The main export is logs. It is barely a functioning state, and maybe the economic stats are shot to pieces. My suspicion is that they are not recording the income implicit in subsistence production that is not formally traded.

Clearly there is no arithmetical impediment to wealthy countries having high levels of equality. But the UAE figure is fishy, given what we know about how UAE operates. My guess is that they are not including all those labourers without permanent status who are actually more than half the "overnight population". There is also a lack of clarity between what is state money and what is the personal money of the ruling elites, which I expect the national statistics record in a "polite" way.

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:52 am

Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:54 am
Catholics generally view the bible as poetic guidance rather than absolute truth, it’s Protestants who take it literally. (Large amounts of hand-waving.)
That is... not true. Very many levels and strengths of not true.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Grumble » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:00 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:52 am
Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:54 am
Catholics generally view the bible as poetic guidance rather than absolute truth, it’s Protestants who take it literally. (Large amounts of hand-waving.)
That is... not true. Very many levels and strengths of not true.
It’s the Catholic theologian response to attacks on the plausibility or accuracy of the bible though, and ties in with how the Vatican astronomers view Genesis.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am

Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:26 am

Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:00 am
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:52 am
Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:54 am
Catholics generally view the bible as poetic guidance rather than absolute truth, it’s Protestants who take it literally. (Large amounts of hand-waving.)
That is... not true. Very many levels and strengths of not true.
It’s the Catholic theologian response to attacks on the plausibility or accuracy of the bible though, and ties in with how the Vatican astronomers view Genesis.
Catholic doctrine is that there's no contradiction between faith and science, as science reveals the nature of a universe that was created by god. As such Catholic doctrine has, for a long time, accepted evolution, that the universe is billions of years old etc.

The current pope has stated that:
When we read in Genesis the account of Creation, we risk imagining that God was a magician, with such a magic wand as to be able to do everything. However, it was not like that. He created beings and left them to develop according to the internal laws that He gave each one, so that they would develop, and reach their fullness. He gave autonomy to the beings of the universe at the same time that He assured them of his continual presence, giving being to every reality. And thus creation went forward for centuries and centuries, millennia and millennia until it became what we know today, in fact because God is not a demiurge or a magician, but the Creator who gives being to all entities. The beginning of the world was not the work of chaos, which owes its origin to another, but it derives directly from a Supreme Principle who creates out of love. The Big-Bang, that is placed today at the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine intervention but exacts it. The evolution in nature is not opposed to the notion of Creation, because evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve.

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:45 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am
Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
Probably better to say that some Protestant churches take it literally.

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Grumble » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:06 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am
Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
C of E is in a funny muddle ground between Catholic and Protestant though. I don’t think any sensible Christians have taken the bible literally since evolution became well accepted, but the holdouts are Protestants not Catholics. I was going to say fundie Protestants, but I know there are Baptists who wouldn’t necessarily qualify as fundies who question evolution (in the U.K.).
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by shpalman » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:23 pm

Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:06 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am
Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
C of E is in a funny muddle ground between Catholic and Protestant though. I don’t think any sensible Christians have taken the bible literally since evolution became well accepted, but the holdouts are Protestants not Catholics. I was going to say fundie Protestants, but I know there are Baptists who wouldn’t necessarily qualify as fundies who question evolution (in the U.K.).
My mum and my sister are in some sort of evangelical church which is young earth creationist, has its sabbath on Saturday, and takes leviticus more seriously (e.g. not eating pork).
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:25 pm

Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:06 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am
Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
C of E is in a funny muddle ground between Catholic and Protestant though. I don’t think any sensible Christians have taken the bible literally since evolution became well accepted, but the holdouts are Protestants not Catholics. I was going to say fundie Protestants, but I know there are Baptists who wouldn’t necessarily qualify as fundies who question evolution (in the U.K.).
Probably more accurate to say "people who take the Bible literally are protestants" rather than "protestants take the Bible literally", in that case.

Not sure about the Orthodox churches.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:45 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:25 pm
Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:06 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am
Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
C of E is in a funny muddle ground between Catholic and Protestant though. I don’t think any sensible Christians have taken the bible literally since evolution became well accepted, but the holdouts are Protestants not Catholics. I was going to say fundie Protestants, but I know there are Baptists who wouldn’t necessarily qualify as fundies who question evolution (in the U.K.).
Probably more accurate to say "people who take the Bible literally are protestants" rather than "protestants take the Bible literally", in that case.

Not sure about the Orthodox churches.

Good question about the Orthodox churches, I had a quick look around and I couldn't find a definitive position for one or other of the churches.

But I did find this by an Orthodox friar living in the US which concludes:
The stories of Genesis cannot be read apart from their original cultural context, and when we read them as they were meant to be read, we see that the creation story was a gauntlet thrown down before the prevailing culture of its time. The creation stories affirmed that the Jewish God, the tribal deity of a small and internationally unimportant people, alone made the whole cosmos. That meant that He was able to protect His People. It meant that, properly speaking, all the pagan nations should abandon their old gods and worship Him. These stories affirm that the Jewish God is powerful enough to have created everything by a few simple orders. They affirm that Man is not the mere tool and slave of the gods, whose job it is to feed the deities and care for their temples. Rather, Man is a co-ruler with God, His own image and viceroy on earth. And Woman is not a thing to be sold, inferior to Man. Rather, she shares Man’s calling and dignity.

These are the real lessons of Genesis. It has nothing to say, for or against, the theory of evolution. Its true lessons are located elsewhere.

So what about dinosaurs? I happily leave them in the museums, to the makers of movies (I love “Jurassic Park”), and the writers of National Geographic. The creation stories of Genesis give me lots to ponder and to live up to without multiplying mysteries. As Mark Twain once said, “It ain’t those parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me; it’s the parts I do understand.”

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by shpalman » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:06 pm

The catholic church is fairly obsessed with Mary and her virginity based on literally believing what's at the beginning of two of the gospels (despite them being otherwise totally contradictory regarding Jesus's retconned origin story). Not saying that the protestants or anglicans don't believe in the virgin birth in general, but there's far less veneration of Mary going on.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Grumble » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:12 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:25 pm
Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:06 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am
Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
C of E is in a funny muddle ground between Catholic and Protestant though. I don’t think any sensible Christians have taken the bible literally since evolution became well accepted, but the holdouts are Protestants not Catholics. I was going to say fundie Protestants, but I know there are Baptists who wouldn’t necessarily qualify as fundies who question evolution (in the U.K.).
Probably more accurate to say "people who take the Bible literally are protestants" rather than "protestants take the Bible literally", in that case.

Not sure about the Orthodox churches.
That is a better way to express it, thanks.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by DJL » Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:05 pm

shpalman wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:06 pm
The catholic church is fairly obsessed with Mary and her virginity based on literally believing what's at the beginning of two of the gospels (despite them being otherwise totally contradictory regarding Jesus's retconned origin story). Not saying that the protestants or anglicans don't believe in the virgin birth in general, but there's far less veneration of Mary going on.
The way some Catholic members of my family are devoted to Mary and view her as an intercessor to the Big Man makes me view her as some kind of administrative assistant. One probably trained in the same place as medical receptionists given the difficulty in getting an appointment with the fella.

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Trinucleus » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:59 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:52 am
Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:54 am
Catholics generally view the bible as poetic guidance rather than absolute truth, it’s Protestants who take it literally. (Large amounts of hand-waving.)
That is... not true. Very many levels and strengths of not true.
My favourite Dave Allen joke:

St Peter is showing a new resident round heaven

"Over there are the Jews, in the distance are the Muslims, and just to the right are the Hindus."

"What's behind that high wall?"

"Shhhh, it's the Catholics. They think they're the only ones here"

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by monkey » Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:58 pm

Trinucleus wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:59 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:52 am
Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:54 am
Catholics generally view the bible as poetic guidance rather than absolute truth, it’s Protestants who take it literally. (Large amounts of hand-waving.)
That is... not true. Very many levels and strengths of not true.
My favourite Dave Allen joke:

St Peter is showing a new resident round heaven

"Over there are the Jews, in the distance are the Muslims, and just to the right are the Hindus."

"What's behind that high wall?"

"Shhhh, it's the Catholics. They think they're the only ones here"
I did do a chuckle, but it seems a bit unfair to single out Catholics. Many protestant churches would think that they'd be the only ones there too. For example, iIt is typical of evangelical types to tell you that the only way to get into The Kingdom of The Lord is to repent and accept Jesus into your life, otherwise it's to Hell you go. But I suppose it wouldn't be funny if you made it too complicated.

The joke did make me think of a Steve Bell's If... strip where some cold war era American conservative (I can't remember who) is annoyed to find Karl Marx in heaven. Marx is grumpy and says "think how I feel, I'm an Atheist". (I couldn't find it with a google I'm afraid)

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by IvanV » Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:24 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:25 pm
Not sure about the Orthodox churches.
Orthodox theology is quite similar to Roman Catholic, much more so than the differences between the multifarious Protestant churches and Rome. The Great Schism between Orthodoxy and Rome was not actually over any deep theological differences, as with Protestants. Nor has there been a proliferation of Orthodox sects arguing for different theologies, as with the protestants. There are two Ukrainian Orthodox churches, but that is because one is is subservient to Moscow and the other isn't. Then there are "Greek catholics" and others of that ilk, who use an orthodox liturgy but acknowledge, and are accepted by, the Pope. This can only happen because the theological differences are small.

The schism was more about the Eastern churches' reasonable objection that things which had previously been agreed by consensus, Rome had sought to take to itself the right to impose on the whole church without consultation. In a sense, by adopting the word "Orthodox" the Eastern churches are implying that they were the ones that are continuing with the "right belief" (meaning of "orthodox"), and it was Rome that had split from them.

For example, one of the biggest things that the relationship broke down upon was Rome's insistence on adding the word "filioque" to the Creed, insisting on its right to do so without consultation. It's taken until 1995, ie about 1500 years since the amendment in Latin first came into use, for Rome to admit that the Filioque was really just a semantic quibble over how the Latin translation of the Creed is interpreted in comparison to the (arguably primary) Greek text. Though of course that leaves moot what might have happened in translations into other languages. In other words, it is kind of acknowledging the Orthodox position that Rome provoked the dispute to try and assert its authority over the whole pre-schism church.

It should be remembered that it is far from obvious that Rome should be the centre of the church. The pre-schism church in practice operated as an equal communion of "autocephalous" churches, just as the Eastern orthodox church does today. Which is why the councils of Chalcedon, Nicaea, etc, were convened to address the large theological questions of the day. The pope never had authority over these parts of the pre-schism church. Constantinople was the city the Roman emperor, who turned the empire Christian, founded and made the capital of his empire. Constantinople was the great centre of economic power in the Mediterranean from the 4th century until Byzantine Empire became diminished by the Turkish expansion. Yet it never tried to assert it was the pre-eminent head of the church. But as the Holy Roman Empire became a significant power in the early mediaeval period, Rome sought to impose its pre-eminence by religious as well as economic means.

We can see a similar issue in Ethiopia. During the 17th century, roughly, numerous wars were fought over the doctrine of Sost Lidet (three births - the opposing position being Hulet Lidet or two births). It is a christological distinction of such triviality and pointlessness it has never troubled theologians of other churches to consider it. Humans are ever inventing new distinctions to set themselves up as a distinct group attracting loyalty, and so gain strength to impose themselves over others.

Young earth creationism was such an established belief until quite late, that even Newton believed it and spent as much more time seeking to establish the date of the creation of the earth by biblical study, than he spent on his physical and mathematical innovations we remember him for. Since physics demonstrated such a belief as nonsense, I think it is really only a few minority protestant sects who have sought to maintain it.

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:47 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:25 pm
Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:06 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am
Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
C of E is in a funny muddle ground between Catholic and Protestant though. I don’t think any sensible Christians have taken the bible literally since evolution became well accepted, but the holdouts are Protestants not Catholics. I was going to say fundie Protestants, but I know there are Baptists who wouldn’t necessarily qualify as fundies who question evolution (in the U.K.).
Probably more accurate to say "people who take the Bible literally are protestants" rather than "protestants take the Bible literally", in that case.

Not sure about the Orthodox churches.
Even then, nope, sorry. People who take the creation stories in Genesis literally are more likely to be protestants. There are plenty of other areas of the Bible where (some/many/most) catholics or the Roman Catholic Church adhere more strictly to what is written there than (some/many/most) protestants (why does the catholic church not have women priests, for instance, but the C of E does?).

The simple fact is there's so much variation, both denominationally and personally, in what different parts of Christianity believe, that it's rather pointless trying to draw lines around who is more or less biblical.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:07 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:47 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:25 pm
Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:06 pm


C of E is in a funny muddle ground between Catholic and Protestant though. I don’t think any sensible Christians have taken the bible literally since evolution became well accepted, but the holdouts are Protestants not Catholics. I was going to say fundie Protestants, but I know there are Baptists who wouldn’t necessarily qualify as fundies who question evolution (in the U.K.).
Probably more accurate to say "people who take the Bible literally are protestants" rather than "protestants take the Bible literally", in that case.

Not sure about the Orthodox churches.
Even then, nope, sorry. People who take the creation stories in Genesis literally are more likely to be protestants. There are plenty of other areas of the Bible where (some/many/most) catholics or the Roman Catholic Church adhere more strictly to what is written there than (some/many/most) protestants (why does the catholic church not have women priests, for instance, but the C of E does?).

The simple fact is there's so much variation, both denominationally and personally, in what different parts of Christianity believe, that it's rather pointless trying to draw lines around who is more or less biblical.
Fair point. We can whittle it down to "creationists are more likely to be protestant".

IIRC Catholic doctrine still takes transubstantiation somewhat literally (though I'd be surprised if many of the Catholics I know do).

Thanks for the info on orthodoxy btw folks.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by shpalman » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:16 am

So what are the poetic lessons about how to go about living your life to be found in Genesis?

Or is it the implicit christian position that we should mostly ignore the old testament now?
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:23 am

shpalman wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:16 am
So what are the poetic lessons about how to go about living your life to be found in Genesis?

Or is it the implicit christian position that we should mostly ignore the old testament now?
One example in chopper's post. Here's a link to save you scrolling viewtopic.php?p=108892#p108892
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by shpalman » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:49 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:23 am
shpalman wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:16 am
So what are the poetic lessons about how to go about living your life to be found in Genesis?

Or is it the implicit christian position that we should mostly ignore the old testament now?
One example in chopper's post. Here's a link to save you scrolling viewtopic.php?p=108892#p108892
I'm really not sure where anyone would get "Woman is not a thing to be sold, inferior to Man. Rather, she shares Man’s calling and dignity." from Genesis. Or why in the modern age you'd need to get that from there as if we haven't made progress since then. Maybe, in "the prevailing culture of its time" it was progressive, but that was a long time ago.
The creation stories affirmed said that the Jewish God, the tribal deity of a small and internationally unimportant people*, alone made the whole cosmos.
* - having been written by those very people! what are the chances
They affirm say that Man is not the mere tool and slave of the gods, whose job it is to feed the deities and care for their temples. Rather, Man is a co-ruler with God, His own image and viceroy on earth
But that would be the second, post-Noah, version, because the first version went wrong and he had to kill them all.
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Re: Mocking religion

Post by Imrael » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:11 pm

A bit of a derail (unusual I know) but I've met weveral Anglicans who firmly deny that Anglicanism is Protestant.

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by jimbob » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:43 pm

Grumble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:06 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am
Mmm, but C of E certainly doesn't take the Bible literally, for instance. I don't think I've met a single person who does, and I was around Protestant church folks for about 20 years.
C of E is in a funny muddle ground between Catholic and Protestant though. I don’t think any sensible Christians have taken the bible literally since evolution became well accepted, but the holdouts are Protestants not Catholics. I was going to say fundie Protestants, but I know there are Baptists who wouldn’t necessarily qualify as fundies who question evolution (in the U.K.).
The CofE is so wide that there are Evangelical wings (often they don't like women priests either) and they are gaining in influence as a lot of the other churchgoers have stopped.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Mocking religion

Post by shpalman » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:02 pm

But surely they can just work out which version is the right one based on some experimental tests oh no wait they can't because this is religion not science.
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