Anti-social Behaviour

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discovolante
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Anti-social Behaviour

Post by discovolante » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:35 pm

Links to tweets sorry:

https://twitter.com/brokenbottleboy/sta ... 13283?s=20

Examples of antisocial behaviour, according to the Mirror :
EydNZdaXIAElqRb.jpeg
EydNZdaXIAElqRb.jpeg (53.61 KiB) Viewed 374 times


'Teens hanging round on streets'

YOUNG PEOPLE
OUTSIDE

Sorry I don't even have anything intellectual to say about this, I'm just letting off steam because I'm so annoyed. The tweet thread I linked to is better.
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Fishnut
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Fishnut » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:24 pm

As the Mirror unhelpfully doesn't link to the report I tried finding it myself, and either my google-fu is failing or the report isn't out yet. All I could find was this which says the survey is being conducted differently this year due to covid.

But let's accept the data are accurate. We have statements like,
"Nearly 1.2m people had seen abandoned or burnt-out cars in their areas, according to the survey"
Ok, but that tells us nothing about the number of abandoned or burnt-out cars. Abandoned and burnt-out are quite different too, and conflating them seems designed to make the situation seem worse than it may be. And why are cars being abandoned more? People don't normally just abandon expensive things without a reason. Or are we supposed to assume they're cars that have been nicked and then dumped?
"Six million (13%) had spotted yobs being drunk or rowdy in public"
Not just people being drunk but "yobs". Nice editorialising there. And again, these aren't people who have been bothered by drunk or rowdy people, merely that they've "spotted" them.
"almost seven million (14%) experienced teens handing around on streets"
Not simply seen but "experienced". So scary!

This feels like Labour are trying to repeat Blair's "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", but somehow ignoring the "causes" bit beyond the cuts to policing budgets. From the Mirror article,
Shadow Home Secretary Nick Thomas-Symonds, a former criminal barrister, said: ...“Labour will work to put more police on our streets and would act where the Conservatives have failed and introduce a new Victims’ Law that would give victims of antisocial behaviour the same rights as victims of crimes.”
I found this piece written by Blair in 1993 (reproduced in 2015) where he says,
any sensible society acting in its own interests as well as those of its citizens will understand and recognise that poor education and housing, inadequate or cruel family backgrounds, low employment prospects and drug abuse will affect the likelihood of young people turning to crime. If they are placed outside mainstream culture, offered no hope or continuity, shown no respect by others and unable to develop respect for themselves, there is a greater chance of their going wrong. This cannot be challenged other than through active community intervention. To see this requires not a PhD in sociology, but a small experience of life. Yet the Tories are destroying hope for young people, slashing training programmes, closing youth clubs. They are inert in the face of rising youth unemployment.

I'm not really in a position to judge the effectiveness of Blair's ambitions in this regard as I was a teenager when he came into power and wasn't interested in politics, but it's clear we have a repeat of the circumstances that led to his next and most famous line "We should be tough on crime and tough on the underlying causes of crime". The fact Starmer appears to be focusing on policing without considering any of the causal factors is deeply disappointing.
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bob sterman
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by bob sterman » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:52 pm

Sounds like they want to take us back to the days of New Labour and the ASBO - which made acts that were not criminal offences for most people (e.g. hanging around on the street), criminal offences for specific individuals.

ASBOs were notorious for creating bespoke criminal offences for specific individuals, punishable by imprisonment, for acts such as wearing a hat, wearing a dress, having loud sex, possessing a mobile phone, possessing marbles, or entering a shop in Denbighshire.

https://www.statewatch.org/observatorie ... eme-cases/

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Opti
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Opti » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:59 pm

I think I have to out myself as indulging in anti-social behaviour most days, tbh.
Obvs not the littering, whatever that is. I'm old enough to remember the 'Keep Britain Tidy' campaign.
Time for a big fat one.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:48 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:24 pm
As the Mirror unhelpfully doesn't link to the report I tried finding it myself, and either my google-fu is failing or the report isn't out yet. All I could find was this which says the survey is being conducted differently this year due to covid.
As far as I can tell the question about teenagers has been part of the annual British then England and Wales crime surveys for at least about 20 years. I haven't found a question from before that. But things from the 90s or earlier may well have not been put online. Here's an example from 2008.

From the above link it looks like the question format is:
For the following things I read out, can you tell me how much of a problem they are in your area. By your area I mean within 15 minutes walk from here.
.....Teenagers hanging around on the streets?
.....Vandalism, graffiti and other deliberate damage to property or vehicles?
.....People using or dealing drugs?
.....People being drunk or rowdy in public places?
.....Rubbish or litter lying around?
....Noisy neighbours or loud parties?
....Abandoned or burnt-out cars?

Respondents are asked to select their answers from the following response list:
•Very big problem
•Fairly big problem
•Not a very big problem
•Not a problem at all.

The BCS uses the responses to these seven individual ASB questions to construct a scale to measure ‘high’ levels of overall perceived ASB. The scale scores the responses to the questions as follows: ‘very big problem’ = 3, ‘fairly big problem’ = 2, ‘not a very big problem’ = 1 and ‘not a problem at all’ = 0. The maximum score for the seven questions is 21. Those respondents with a score of 11 or more on this scale were classified as having high levels of perceived ASB. 2
As such its purpose appears to be to assess people's perceptions of antisocial behaviour rather than to measure the actual prevalence. The number of teenagers hanging around could remain constant while answers change according to whether that is viewed as a problem or not.

As you write, its foolish to treat a survey of perceptions as if it is telling us about actual incidents.

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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by monkey » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:23 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:52 pm
Sounds like they want to take us back to the days of New Labour and the ASBO - which made acts that were not criminal offences for most people (e.g. hanging around on the street), criminal offences for specific individuals.

ASBOs were notorious for creating bespoke criminal offences for specific individuals, punishable by imprisonment, for acts such as wearing a hat, wearing a dress, having loud sex, possessing a mobile phone, possessing marbles, or entering a shop in Denbighshire.

https://www.statewatch.org/observatorie ... eme-cases/
It does seem to be a move towards more broken windows policing, with the racism and classism that could come along with that. But it could just be posturing for the local elections, Labour can't actually do much, so it might just be mouth-trousers time.

I think Fishnut got it right with
Fishnut wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:24 pm
This feels like Labour are trying to repeat Blair's "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", but somehow ignoring the "causes" bit beyond the cuts to policing budgets.
It was certainly the impression I got. But I'd also add that it feels like the sort of thing Labour would come out with after doing a few focus groups.

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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:34 am

Surely teenagers hanging around on the streets is social behaviour - it's be anti-social of them to stay at home and ignore everyone else.
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Chris Preston » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:52 am

Opti wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:59 pm
I think I have to out myself as indulging in anti-social behaviour most days, tbh.
Obvs not the littering, whatever that is. I'm old enough to remember the 'Keep Britain Tidy' campaign.
I would have thought you were a little old to be mistaken for a teenager.
Here grows much rhubarb.

Lydia Gwilt
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Lydia Gwilt » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:24 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:34 am
Surely teenagers hanging around on the streets is social behaviour - it's be anti-social of them to stay at home and ignore everyone else.
No they'd be being unsociable if they were doing that

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discovolante
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by discovolante » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:27 am

Thanks Fishnut and Woodchopper. The reporting did seem a bit suspect so cheers for taking the time to check. That said it was the reporting and the fact that it was that story that was picked up on as a basis for promoting a policy that riled me up. I think the fact that it doesn't seem to be accurately reflecting the survey itself only makes that worse tbh.
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Fishnut
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Fishnut » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:47 am

discovolante wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:27 am
Thanks Fishnut and Woodchopper. The reporting did seem a bit suspect so cheers for taking the time to check. That said it was the reporting and the fact that it was that story that was picked up on as a basis for promoting a policy that riled me up. I think the fact that it doesn't seem to be accurately reflecting the survey itself only makes that worse tbh.
I can see what Labour's trying to do and smarter political brains that I will know whether or not it'll work. To me, it seems like playing to the "lock 'em up" crowd, the ones who talk about how "in my day kids showed a bit of respect" and the like. How this is supposed to distinguish them from the Tories I don't know and how it's supposed to convince anyone with even marginal progressive leanings that Labour offers them a political home I also don't know. I can't help but feel Labour would be better off trying to attract the huge numbers of people who don't vote rather than fighting with the Tories over the same small set of voters.
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Woodchopper
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:17 am

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:47 am
discovolante wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:27 am
Thanks Fishnut and Woodchopper. The reporting did seem a bit suspect so cheers for taking the time to check. That said it was the reporting and the fact that it was that story that was picked up on as a basis for promoting a policy that riled me up. I think the fact that it doesn't seem to be accurately reflecting the survey itself only makes that worse tbh.
I can see what Labour's trying to do and smarter political brains that I will know whether or not it'll work. To me, it seems like playing to the "lock 'em up" crowd, the ones who talk about how "in my day kids showed a bit of respect" and the like. How this is supposed to distinguish them from the Tories I don't know and how it's supposed to convince anyone with even marginal progressive leanings that Labour offers them a political home I also don't know.
This is a complex political issue as the people most concerned about antisocial behaviour (including seeing teenagers hanging around) are people living in social housing. This would appear to be one of many issues where there is a division between what would once have been viewed as the traditional left, and a reason why the Tories had about a 10 point lead among working class voters in 2019.
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:47 am
I can't help but feel Labour would be better off trying to attract the huge numbers of people who don't vote rather than fighting with the Tories over the same small set of voters.
As discussed at length at other times, the existence of millions of non-voters who would be enthused by progressive policies is a pipe dream.

There was a large bloc of people who were not well served by the two parties. They were people who were economically left wing (into increased spending) and socially right wing (into locking up criminals and reducing immigration etc). At least in terms of rhetoric Johnson made a pitch for their votes in 2019.

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Fishnut
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Re: Anti-social Behaviour

Post by Fishnut » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:25 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:17 am
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:47 am
discovolante wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:27 am
Thanks Fishnut and Woodchopper. The reporting did seem a bit suspect so cheers for taking the time to check. That said it was the reporting and the fact that it was that story that was picked up on as a basis for promoting a policy that riled me up. I think the fact that it doesn't seem to be accurately reflecting the survey itself only makes that worse tbh.
I can see what Labour's trying to do and smarter political brains that I will know whether or not it'll work. To me, it seems like playing to the "lock 'em up" crowd, the ones who talk about how "in my day kids showed a bit of respect" and the like. How this is supposed to distinguish them from the Tories I don't know and how it's supposed to convince anyone with even marginal progressive leanings that Labour offers them a political home I also don't know.
This is a complex political issue as the people most concerned about antisocial behaviour (including seeing teenagers hanging around) are people living in social housing. This would appear to be one of many issues where there is a division between what would once have been viewed as the traditional left, and a reason why the Tories had about a 10 point lead among working class voters in 2019.
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:47 am
I can't help but feel Labour would be better off trying to attract the huge numbers of people who don't vote rather than fighting with the Tories over the same small set of voters.
As discussed at length at other times, the existence of millions of non-voters who would be enthused by progressive policies is a pipe dream.

There was a large bloc of people who were not well served by the two parties. They were people who were economically left wing (into increased spending) and socially right wing (into locking up criminals and reducing immigration etc). At least in terms of rhetoric Johnson made a pitch for their votes in 2019.
That's really interesting, thanks :)
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