Northern Ireland riots

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bjn
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by bjn » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:24 am

lpm wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:00 am
Tessa K wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:05 am
Boustrophedon wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:38 am
There are two accents of the English language I cannot abide: One is Afrikaans and the other is Ulster protestant. I dislike them not only because they sound ugly but because they have, in my mind, a life long association with angry rhetoric and the subjugation of others.

So as far as I am concerned the Orange order can take their pathetic marching bands, their pipes and whistles and their stupid pseudo masonic regalia and they can f.cking march off of into the Atlantic for all I care.

I am also sick to death of Northern Irish protestant political interests holding the conservatives to ransom with their minority vote in the house of commons. "Loyalist" they're not f.cking loyal to anything I hold dear.

United Ireland? Yes please, have the North with my blessing, sorry about the proddies.
Some figures on NI:

Of the 1.9 million people in NI (in 2019), around 48% are Protestant, 45% Catholic (2011 census). That's around 912,000 people who identify as Protestant - less than the population of Birmingham. NI contributes about 2% of UK GDP.
One day the world might be this rational, but the population of the Falklands was less than the population of Nether Wallop and it contributed about 0% of UK GDP, and the Homo sapiens still managed to kill 907 people in a war over it.
Surely in that case the onus of irrationality is on the Argentines who invaded for ~0% of the UK's GDP? What should be the UK's rational response to such an irrational invasion?

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lpm
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by lpm » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:57 am

It's a bit like being irrationally nuked, so nuking back. Which is irrational.

In this instance, the UK has been irrational and has damaged Northern Ireland. Have to start from the current position in deciding the next steps. The loyalists should be rational in response to the current situation; sadly they are going to be irrational in response to the irrational Brexit decisions. Republicans will then be irrational in response to the irrational loyalists.

Everyone is going to be far too slow to adapt to having a self-serving liar in Number 10 Downing Street.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by Allo V Psycho » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:27 pm

lpm wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:00 am

One day the world might be this rational, but the population of the Falklands was less than the population of Nether Wallop and it contributed about 0% of UK GDP, and the Homo sapiens still managed to kill 907 people in a war over it.
Significant derail: but I think this is an interesting and confusing question. Since it moves into alternative history territory, it's also unresolvable.

The Falklands/Malvinas were of very limited economic value at the time of the invasion, but had unclear future economic value in terms of sea-bed resources. But there is, I think, a good general argument that diplomatic arguments should not be unilaterally resolved by force, especially where a majority of the local inhabitants are opposed to that resolution. So attempting to address the Falklands situation post-invasion was well worth attempting.

Could it have been resolved diplomatically? I don't think this was likely. The junta would have faced political losses from any diplomatic compromise, while they were clearly massive beneficiaries of the invasion in political terms.

And if there had been no military solution? I think undoubtedly the junta would have remained in power for longer, and with enhanced authority, leading to more civilian deaths and disappearances. I think probably the junta would have proceeded to resolve the Beagle Channel disputes by force, inviting war with Chile. I think possibly that Venezuela would have invaded Guyana, and in that case, the UK would have been involved in conflict there.

My concerns at the time were not about the morality of military action, but about the practicality of it, and, indeed, if the Argentineans had waited a year (or even two months) OR had devoted serious consideration to 'what happens next' after the invasion, then military victory for the UK would have been essentially impossible.

I don't forget that the Thatcherite Government ill-advised defence cuts were a significant factor in creating the environment in which the junta considered invasion. Or that, absent a UK military victory, Thatcher might well have lost the next UK election. but now the alternatives are too far out of calculation for me personally to draw any clear conclusions.

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jimbob
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by jimbob » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:49 pm

But but this article from 2016 said it was going to be fine

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1255156/t ... n-ireland/
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by sTeamTraen » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:30 pm

lpm wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:57 am
Everyone is going to be far too slow to adapt to having a self-serving liar in Number 10 Downing Street.
It's difficult, isn't it? How do you, as a normal person who is the leader of a region or population or country, say out loud "There's no point dealing with Johnson, because we know that he will do the opposite next week to what he just agreed, and then pretend he didn't"? We don't have anything in the rules of the democratic and diplomatic process that lets us deal with that. Trump and then Johnson have discovered that the whole system is based around people having a minimum of shame, and since they have none, everything else drops away unless the courts can stop it.
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:30 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:57 am
Everyone is going to be far too slow to adapt to having a self-serving liar in Number 10 Downing Street.
It's difficult, isn't it? How do you, as a normal person who is the leader of a region or population or country, say out loud "There's no point dealing with Johnson, because we know that he will do the opposite next week to what he just agreed, and then pretend he didn't"? We don't have anything in the rules of the democratic and diplomatic process that lets us deal with that. Trump and then Johnson have discovered that the whole system is based around people having a minimum of shame, and since they have none, everything else drops away unless the courts can stop it.
I don’t think that lack of shame is the problem. There have always been shameless politicians.

In the past it was assumed that a majority of the electorate wouldn’t tolerate being lied to.

Now it seems that a large proportion want to be lied to.

The system can’t cope with a self-destructive electorate.

Previously

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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by JQH » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:46 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:49 pm
But but this article from 2016 said it was going to be fine

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1255156/t ... n-ireland/
I wonder if it's worth freezepaging that?
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Tessa K
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by Tessa K » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:44 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:30 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:57 am
Everyone is going to be far too slow to adapt to having a self-serving liar in Number 10 Downing Street.
It's difficult, isn't it? How do you, as a normal person who is the leader of a region or population or country, say out loud "There's no point dealing with Johnson, because we know that he will do the opposite next week to what he just agreed, and then pretend he didn't"? We don't have anything in the rules of the democratic and diplomatic process that lets us deal with that. Trump and then Johnson have discovered that the whole system is based around people having a minimum of shame, and since they have none, everything else drops away unless the courts can stop it.
I don’t think that lack of shame is the problem. There have always been shameless politicians.

In the past it was assumed that a majority of the electorate wouldn’t tolerate being lied to.

Now it seems that a large proportion want to be lied to.


The system can’t cope with a self-destructive electorate.

Previously
In the past a lot of people didn't know they were being lied to because their only source of news was the newspaper and a lot never made it into print. Also, people were more trusting of authority in the past (because there was less access to evidence that they shouldn't be).

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Woodchopper
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:05 am

Tessa K wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:44 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:30 pm


It's difficult, isn't it? How do you, as a normal person who is the leader of a region or population or country, say out loud "There's no point dealing with Johnson, because we know that he will do the opposite next week to what he just agreed, and then pretend he didn't"? We don't have anything in the rules of the democratic and diplomatic process that lets us deal with that. Trump and then Johnson have discovered that the whole system is based around people having a minimum of shame, and since they have none, everything else drops away unless the courts can stop it.
I don’t think that lack of shame is the problem. There have always been shameless politicians.

In the past it was assumed that a majority of the electorate wouldn’t tolerate being lied to.

Now it seems that a large proportion want to be lied to.


The system can’t cope with a self-destructive electorate.

Previously
In the past a lot of people didn't know they were being lied to because their only source of news was the newspaper and a lot never made it into print. Also, people were more trusting of authority in the past (because there was less access to evidence that they shouldn't be).
To a certain extent. But also, being caught lying in Parliament used to be a big deal. It was something that led to ministers resigning. Perhaps people had more trust because they could see that there were negative consequences for those who were caught. It was probably a mixture of both.

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Tessa K
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by Tessa K » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:27 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:05 am
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:44 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 pm


I don’t think that lack of shame is the problem. There have always been shameless politicians.

In the past it was assumed that a majority of the electorate wouldn’t tolerate being lied to.

Now it seems that a large proportion want to be lied to.


The system can’t cope with a self-destructive electorate.

Previously
In the past a lot of people didn't know they were being lied to because their only source of news was the newspaper and a lot never made it into print. Also, people were more trusting of authority in the past (because there was less access to evidence that they shouldn't be).
To a certain extent. But also, being caught lying in Parliament used to be a big deal. It was something that led to ministers resigning. Perhaps people had more trust because they could see that there were negative consequences for those who were caught. It was probably a mixture of both.
True although it would mostly be other MPs who spotted the lie and a few political journalists who had access to Hansard. It would often be in the interest of the liar's own party not to say anything, of course.

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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by bmforre » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:33 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:05 am
... being caught lying in Parliament used to be a big deal...
I well remember some years ago that US rightwingers poured scorn at people appealing to facts. It went something like "You are subjects to facts while we decide the facts". Lying obviously no problem, just change the facts.

When Donald Trump returned to the White House from Walter Reed he took off his mask with a prideful look at this environment where he commanded the facts and no pesky immunologists could tell him ...

There are plenty of "philosophers" who support the view that no facts are better than others, it's just a question of tales that are more or less successful in the market of ideas.

Some people well away from Northern Ireland believe they have the best tales about issues there and demand that developments yield to their ideas.

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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by noggins » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:43 pm

I think that politicians have always lied and bulshitted.
But at the moment the political factions and interests behind the two party systems are in an inchoate mess pending the coalescing of new alliances. So the parties are flailing around bullshitting everyone, rather than trying to tell “the truth” of their side.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:06 pm

noggins wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:43 pm
I think that politicians have always lied and bulshitted.
But at the moment the political factions and interests behind the two party systems are in an inchoate mess pending the coalescing of new alliances. So the parties are flailing around bullshitting everyone, rather than trying to tell “the truth” of their side.
Are you referring to Westminster, Stormont, Washington DC or all 3 in this post?

I get the impression that only one side - the right - has really taken on board the obsolescence of facts, or what used to be called "the truth", within the postmodern zeitgeist. The centre/left keeps trying to engage with bullshitters on terms they define, and thus losing automatically.

See e.g. anti-racist researchers accidentally writing a report that downplays institutional racism, because they forgot that the Tories wouldn't just rewrite it but keep their names on it.

It's like watching a bunch of engineers politely asking a burst sewer main if it wouldn't mind awfully clearing up after itself.
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Woodchopper
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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:56 am

Good article (by an author from Belfast): https://unherd.com/2021/04/the-tragedy- ... ?=frbottom

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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by cvb » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:33 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:56 am
Good article (by an author from Belfast): https://unherd.com/2021/04/the-tragedy- ... ?=frbottom
Very good article. Violence has worked in the past.

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Re: Northern Ireland riots

Post by noggins » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:46 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:06 pm
noggins wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:43 pm
I think that politicians have always lied and bulshitted.
But at the moment the political factions and interests behind the two party systems are in an inchoate mess pending the coalescing of new alliances. So the parties are flailing around bullshitting everyone, rather than trying to tell “the truth” of their side.
Are you referring to Westminster, Stormont, Washington DC or all 3 in this post?
All three. But it sounded much cleverer in my head.

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