Untaught History

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
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individualmember
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Re: Untaught History

Post by individualmember » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:46 am

BYW, I know You’re Dead To Me has already been mentioned, I’d also recommend Natalie Haynes Stands Up For The Classics as another radio show well worth a listen (I might have skimmed past it).

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Tessa K
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Re: Untaught History

Post by Tessa K » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:24 am

There's a big hoohaa going on at the moment about the use of 'Anglo-Saxon', a term that has been appropriated by white racists. Pretty much none of them know anything about who they were, what their society was like, where they came from etc. Either they never bothered to learn about them or they forgot everything they learnt at school. The preferred term is now either Early English or Old English people. It's more than the occasional politicans citing some historical figure or event without checking the facts to back up their position, it's becoming a real battleground.

And they forget about the poor old Jutes.

Eg this https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/ ... 5930155008
An America First Caucus is recruiting lawmakers calling for "common respect for uniquely Anglo-Saxon political traditions” and a return to architectural style that “befits the progeny of European architecture.”
And it's not just in the US, it's here too.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Little waster » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:16 am

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:24 am

An America First Caucus is recruiting lawmakers calling for "common respect for uniquely Anglo-Saxon political traditions”
Trial by combat
Removing the hand of robbers
The calling of the fyrds.
Reinstatement of the Witan etc.*



*probably had multiple QI klaxons by now for things which a) aren’t uniquely Anglo Saxon, b) aren’t political or c) never happened.
It's meta, so it is allowed.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Tessa K » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:28 am

Little waster wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:16 am
Tessa K wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:24 am

An America First Caucus is recruiting lawmakers calling for "common respect for uniquely Anglo-Saxon political traditions”
Trial by combat
Removing the hand of robbers
The calling of the fyrds.
Reinstatement of the Witan etc.*



*probably had multiple QI klaxons by now for things which a) aren’t uniquely Anglo Saxon, b) aren’t political or c) never happened.
Politics as we know it now didn't exist in the early Mediaeval period of course. There was the monarch and the nobles, then everyone else who had little or no say at all in governance (governments didn't exist) and most of who were serfs and bondsmen/women who effectively belonged to their lords.
Witan (more properly the title of its members), was a political institution in Anglo-Saxon England which operated from before the 7th century until the 11th century. The Witenagemot was an assembly of the ruling class whose primary function was to advise the king and whose membership was composed of the most important noblemen in England, both ecclesiastic and secular. The institution is thought to represent an aristocratic development of the ancient Germanic general assemblies, or folkmoots. In England, by the 7th century, these ancient folkmoots had developed into convocations of the land's most powerful and important people, including ealdormen, thegns, and senior clergy, to discuss matters of both national and local significance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot

At a local level there was a kind of legal system to collect taxes and enforce law and order (yes, trial by ordeal included)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z ... revision/1

I'm in no hurry to go back to Anglo-Saxon social values where women had no say in anything except for a wealthy few who ran convents etc

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:03 pm

US Conservatives are well known for their love of monarchy and taxes, so you can see why Anglo-Saxon history appeals to them.

They're definitely definitely not just using it as a dogwhistle for "white".
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Re: Untaught History

Post by Tessa K » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:15 pm

As Stewart Lee reminds us...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kkOHtniTts

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Re: Untaught History

Post by dyqik » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:24 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:03 pm
US Conservatives are well known for their love of monarchy and taxes, so you can see why Anglo-Saxon history appeals to them.

They're definitely definitely not just using it as a dogwhistle for "white".
And for the right sort of white, excluding hispanics, Armenians, Greeks, central Europeans, Italians, Irish, etc. as time goes on.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Tessa K » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:35 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:24 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:03 pm
US Conservatives are well known for their love of monarchy and taxes, so you can see why Anglo-Saxon history appeals to them.

They're definitely definitely not just using it as a dogwhistle for "white".
And for the right sort of white, excluding hispanics, Armenians, Greeks, central Europeans, Italians, Irish, etc. as time goes on.
Some of the far right racists in the US use Celtic tattoos and symbolism, probably because there are so many people of Irish descent there and they don't want to feel left out. (Some irony here as the KKK in its early days was very anti-Catholic and Irish migrants had a tough time in the US)

There's a far-right racist movement in Scandi countries too and they're not Anglo-Saxon although they are of the Germanic ethnolinguistic group. Some of the US white supremacists have 'Viking' tattoos and iconography.

I used to wonder at school why so much history teaching focussed on the Greeks and Romans, pretty much none on the Scandinavians other than Viking invasions and even then very little about their culture or impact on ours.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:26 pm

Golden Age of Western - and therefore human - Civilisation, innit. I don't recall the Jutes inventing democracy, philosophy and mathematics.
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Re: Untaught History

Post by monkey » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:01 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:26 pm
Golden Age of Western - and therefore human - Civilisation, innit. I don't recall the Jutes inventing democracy, philosophy and mathematics.
Maybe that's because they didn't teach you it in school.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Allo V Psycho » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:32 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:26 pm
Golden Age of Western - and therefore human - Civilisation, innit. I don't recall the Jutes inventing democracy, philosophy and mathematics.
Yeah, but they did invent sacks.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Little waster » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:12 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:35 pm
pretty much none on the Scandinavians other than Viking invasions and even then very little about their culture or impact on ours.
I remember a couple of lessons on the arrival of the Ancient Ikeans and how they introduced the Romano-Britons to modular furniture and meatballs.
It's meta, so it is allowed.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by bolo » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:40 pm

I spent a year aged 11ish being taught the history of Texas. I bet the rest of you didn't get much of that. Otoh, I don't remember being taught anything about any English kings except George III.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by dyqik » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:08 pm

I spent Year 9 being taught the history of settlement of the American West and the migration of the Mormons.

Nothing on UK history after junior school and a trip to York to the Jorvik Viking Center. This is despite living 4 miles from the 1066 invasion site.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by nezumi » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:29 pm

I had the The Usborne Book of World History as a child. I still think it's a great book for kids, even if it might not stack entirely well with current knowledge. It includes the Gilgamesh story which - for me at least - completely demolished the whole "Jesus" thing my school pushed, as well as some indication of how ordinary people lived and shows some of the grottier sides - like burying a wife alive when her husband died. Great book :lol:

In primary we did the historical periods that can be described as "The..." The Romans, The Tudors, The Victorians, etc. In my first year of secondary we actually did do a "broad brush" year. We covered the bare basics of the the last 2000 years in Britain which has definitely served me well, when I moved to a different school in yr8, we just did bits of history in isolation which is worse than useless imo. What's the point of learning about the Tudors and Stewarts, say, without touching on the Plantagenets or the kings and queens of Scotland or France? Without the context, there's no point in knowing the specifics. It's like teaching cookery without kitchen hygiene or safety, yeah you might make some lovely cupcakes but you didn't clean the tray so now everybody's dead.
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Re: Untaught History

Post by Pishwish » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:02 am

Religion and parliament, basically.

But yeah, history is so vast and requires all sorts of supporting subjects to really appreciate context it's hard to know where to start.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by nezumi » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:38 am

Pishwish wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:02 am
Religion and parliament, basically.

But yeah, history is so vast and requires all sorts of supporting subjects to really appreciate context it's hard to know where to start.
That's the entire problem, it's hard enough fitting the kings and queens of England into the curriculum, never mind all the othr stuff. I, for example, would like to learn about the Kings and Queens of other European countries, but to my knowledge it wasn't even touched upon at school.

If anyone has any English language book recommndations, I woud be grateful actually.
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Re: Untaught History

Post by Tessa K » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:11 am

nezumi wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:38 am
Pishwish wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:02 am
Religion and parliament, basically.

But yeah, history is so vast and requires all sorts of supporting subjects to really appreciate context it's hard to know where to start.
That's the entire problem, it's hard enough fitting the kings and queens of England into the curriculum, never mind all the othr stuff. I, for example, would like to learn about the Kings and Queens of other European countries, but to my knowledge it wasn't even touched upon at school.

If anyone has any English language book recommndations, I woud be grateful actually.
I haven't looked at it in a while but A History of the British Isles by Jeremy Black isn't bad - it covers Scotland and Wales more than many books do and also touches on Ireland.

Also JFC Harrison, The Common People: A History from the Norman Conquest to the Present . (It was written in 1984 so not that up to date but good on the earlier stuff that isn't kings and wars)

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:20 am

Maybe history should be taught in classrooms which have a big timeline around the walls showing political, scientific, and arts for around the world. How many people know who was ruling England when Christopher Columbus made his first journey to America? And how many know who was emperor of China? What sort of music would Columbus have listened to?
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Re: Untaught History

Post by Tessa K » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:29 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:20 am
Maybe history should be taught in classrooms which have a big timeline around the walls showing political, scientific, and arts for around the world. How many people know who was ruling England when Christopher Columbus made his first journey to America? And how many know who was emperor of China? What sort of music would Columbus have listened to?
Early flamenco.

And yes, timelines would be very useful.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Fishnut » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:08 pm

Dan Jones covers 1,000 years of British history in 80 minutes in a History Extra podcast episode.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

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Re: Untaught History

Post by nezumi » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:43 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:20 am
Maybe history should be taught in classrooms which have a big timeline around the walls showing political, scientific, and arts for around the world. How many people know who was ruling England when Christopher Columbus made his first journey to America? And how many know who was emperor of China? What sort of music would Columbus have listened to?
I need someone to make that chart cos I'd use it as wallpaper in my bedroom! It would certainly be big enough.
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Re: Untaught History

Post by Tessa K » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:30 pm

nezumi wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:43 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:20 am
Maybe history should be taught in classrooms which have a big timeline around the walls showing political, scientific, and arts for around the world. How many people know who was ruling England when Christopher Columbus made his first journey to America? And how many know who was emperor of China? What sort of music would Columbus have listened to?
I need someone to make that chart cos I'd use it as wallpaper in my bedroom! It would certainly be big enough.
There are loads of charts available. Also, DK books are normally pretty good as introductions. This one has lots of illustrations [urlhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Timelines-World-Histor ... 0789489260[/url].

You could make your own timeline chart from it to go on your walls and add in any extras that interest you.

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Gfamily » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:34 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:20 am
Maybe history should be taught in classrooms which have a big timeline around the walls showing political, scientific, and arts for around the world. How many people know who was ruling England when Christopher Columbus made his first journey to America? And how many know who was emperor of China? What sort of music would Columbus have listened to?
I have a feeling I saw something like this that was created for the Millennium. Somewhat like the Bayeux tapestry in presentation (though maybe in two or three parts) I have a feeling it was in a Cathedral or similar - but I can't remember whether it was in UK or abroad .

Covered the main world and regional cultures, and had some details of science milestones, though I don't recall whether it had much in the way of the arts .
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Untaught History

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:20 am

That Timelines book looks very nice.

And it occurs to me that a giant wallchart might be quite helpful for students to remember stuff, as it is similar to the memory palace technique.
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