US mass shooting of the day

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shpalman
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by shpalman » Sat May 28, 2022 8:12 am

jimbob wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 7:51 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 12:33 am
From Report: Uvalde School Parents Tased and Arrested While Trying to Save Kids - actually describing a report in The Wall Street Journal, but that's paywalled.
Angeli Rose Gomez, the mother of a second and third grader at Robb Elementary ... was among the parents urging the police to take action.

“After a few minutes, she said, U.S. Marshals put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for actively intervening in an active investigation,” the Journal reported.

She told the news outlet she was able to convince Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to uncuff her and let her go.

Once freed, she distanced herself from the crowd, climbed over the fence surrounding the school, ran into the school and got her two children out.
With policing like that, who needs criminals?
There are reports that they also tried to stop a Border Patrol SWAT team that wanted to go in as well
It was eventually the Border Patrol who went in and killed the gunman, not the police.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Al Capone Junior » Sun May 29, 2022 8:22 am


US police do not have a constitutional duty to protect people, even if their lives are at risk. This has been affirmed several times by the courts. From this article, written after the Marjory Stoneman Douglass shooting,
“Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed out.

“Courts have rejected the argument that students are in custody of school officials while they are on campus,” Mr. Hutchinson said. “Custody is narrowly confined to situations where a person loses his or her freedom to move freely and seek assistance on their own — such as prisons, jails, or mental institutions.”
Yet another of the slew of incredibly bad decisions our Supreme Court has been cranking out for decades.

Scotus = serving corporations of the United States

But today the reach of the Court has been. Expanded to include

Scotus = serving Christians of the United States

When I was in my 20s I predicted the downfall of the US in 150 years. Turns out it would be closer to 40, which is a few years from now.

A Court that takes away rights that have been guaranteed for 50 years, and whose justices talk about the "so called separation of church and state" are not legitimate, they are paid puppets.

Congress has been functionally illegitimate for a couple decades, with each election bringing in more and more radical extremists. Hate and blatantly racist speech that would never have been tolerated 20 years ago is now standard daily spewage from pundits and congressional representatives alike.

Violent coup attempts are easily accepted by a large number of ppl, who also widely accept the legislative coups and arbitrary throwing out of legitimate election results that is openly being put into place for the next election. By men who 100% of them claim the moral high ground is by default theirs because jesus

And let's not forget the convenient gutting of the voter rights act, and the gerrymandering is good to.go decisions

We're just one more idiot trump moron away from complete collapse. After the gutting of the last of the nation's tangible wealth.

Finally, add in the effects of the NRA over the last 50 years, and the fact that everyone is armed to the teeth but almost universally untrained and undisciplined, and the culture of fear that permeates these people's beliefs (which increases the positive feedback loop of fear, guns, and resulting violence)

I give it a rating of "downfall within 5 years"

I might be wrong but I think the evidence points to I'm probably right
Last edited by Bird on a Fire on Sun May 29, 2022 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed quote

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jimbob
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by jimbob » Sun May 29, 2022 9:18 pm

As I have redone this using ourworld in data data

Intentional homicide rate vs per capita GDP for 2015

I think it shows how much of an outlier the US is for its level of GDP. And remember the Y axis is logarithmic.


https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/madd ... ?tab=table

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annu ... ?tab=table

I used 2015 data although there is later for some countries, as that seemed pretty complete, and some countries take a long time to report.


Image
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by IvanV » Mon May 30, 2022 8:12 am

jimbob wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 9:18 pm
As I have redone this using ourworld in data data

Intentional homicide rate vs per capita GDP for 2015
...Because I had to look them up:
The flag with 5 red and white stripes, and a star on a blue ground, is Puerto Rico
The flag with 2 red and blue stripes is Russia, with the 3rd white stripe hard to spot as it is transparent on a white background.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by IvanV » Mon May 30, 2022 8:30 am

shpalman wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 7:15 am
Good person with gun stops mass shooting
The suspect had driven by the area earlier on Wednesday evening when he was warned to slow down because children were playing.
He returned armed with an AR-15-type rifle and opened fire from his vehicle on the birthday-graduation party...
... the woman who fired back did not have any law enforcement background.
We ought to talk about this, because it is a practical occurrence of the situation which the gun nuts often use to justify their position. Ted Cruz was saying pretty much that in the wake of the shooting. Doubtless many think that it demonstrates why teachers should all be armed and trained to shoot, rather than being horrified at the prospect of a gun in every classroom.

My perception is that such occurrences are rare. In fact, I can't think of a prior example. But maybe that's confirmation bias.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by jimbob » Mon May 30, 2022 8:42 am

IvanV wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 8:12 am
jimbob wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 9:18 pm
As I have redone this using ourworld in data data

Intentional homicide rate vs per capita GDP for 2015
...Because I had to look them up:
The flag with 5 red and white stripes, and a star on a blue ground, is Puerto Rico
The flag with 2 red and blue stripes is Russia, with the 3rd white stripe hard to spot as it is transparent on a white background.
I should have put in a key, but the lack of emoji flag support on Windows was annoying me too much to think it
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by shpalman » Mon May 30, 2022 8:48 am

IvanV wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 8:30 am
shpalman wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 7:15 am
Good person with gun stops mass shooting
The suspect had driven by the area earlier on Wednesday evening when he was warned to slow down because children were playing.
He returned armed with an AR-15-type rifle and opened fire from his vehicle on the birthday-graduation party...
... the woman who fired back did not have any law enforcement background.
We ought to talk about this, because it is a practical occurrence of the situation which the gun nuts often use to justify their position. Ted Cruz was saying pretty much that in the wake of the shooting. Doubtless many think that it demonstrates why teachers should all be armed and trained to shoot, rather than being horrified at the prospect of a gun in every classroom.

My perception is that such occurrences are rare. In fact, I can't think of a prior example. But maybe that's confirmation bias.
Well, lots of shootings in the US just don't particularly make the news.

Once someone starts shooting just about the only way to stop them is to shoot and kill them*, the gun nuts seem to think that everyone else being armed would somehow be a deterrent to the instigator and not just lead to a hail of bullets and deaths from crossfire. A much better idea, obvious to everyone who isn't a shouty moron in cargo shorts, is to not let the first guy** have the gun.

The specific problems recently in this thread are people getting hold of assault rifles and the police being useless cowards.

* - despite that I'm sure that there are counter examples, "just about the only way" doesn't mean "literally the only possible way which has ever happened

** - it's just about always a man, isn't it
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Little waster » Mon May 30, 2022 10:36 am

shpalman wrote: ** - it's just about always a man, isn't it
Interesting point.

Is there any examples of a female mass shooter?

Is that then the compromise position? Retain the right to bear arms ... but only for women?

I know a female US colleague (a Floridian natch) is adamant she requires a gun for self-defence against even an unarmed home invader, with the argument that as a woman the standard "just hit them with a table lamp instead" anti-gun argument doesn't work for her.

Can't say I agree with her risk-benefit analysis but then again i'm not in her shoes.
Last edited by Stephanie on Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: quote fix
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by IvanV » Mon May 30, 2022 11:16 am

Little waster wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 10:36 am
Is there any examples of a female mass shooter?
About 4% according to the FBI study cited in this Guardian article. But according to another study cited in this NPR article, it's only 2%. Either way, non-zero. I guess it depends precisely how you define a mass-shooter, and there is bound to be some uncertainty in trying to estimate the frequency of a rare event.

The latter article suggests it's related to the fact that around 96% of homicides are carried out by men, and that men more often use guns when carrying out those homicides. Although this interesting article points out that a high fraction of mass shooting incidents are primarily suicides, in that the perpetrator rarely expects to survive.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by dyqik » Mon May 30, 2022 8:06 pm

IvanV wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 11:16 am
Little waster wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 10:36 am
Is there any examples of a female mass shooter?
About 4% according to the FBI study cited in this Guardian article. But according to another study cited in this NPR article, it's only 2%. Either way, non-zero. I guess it depends precisely how you define a mass-shooter, and there is bound to be some uncertainty in trying to estimate the frequency of a rare event.

The latter article suggests it's related to the fact that around 96% of homicides are carried out by men, and that men more often use guns when carrying out those homicides. Although this interesting article points out that a high fraction of mass shooting incidents are primarily suicides, in that the perpetrator rarely expects to survive.
I suspect it depends on whether you include family murder-suicides in the figure or not.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Millennie Al » Tue May 31, 2022 1:39 am

IvanV wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 8:30 am
shpalman wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 7:15 am
Good person with gun stops mass shooting
We ought to talk about this, because it is a practical occurrence of the situation which the gun nuts often use to justify their position. Ted Cruz was saying pretty much that in the wake of the shooting. Doubtless many think that it demonstrates why teachers should all be armed and trained to shoot, rather than being horrified at the prospect of a gun in every classroom.

My perception is that such occurrences are rare. In fact, I can't think of a prior example. But maybe that's confirmation bias.
It happens occasionally. You can see examples listed here: https://www.conservapedia.com/Mass_shoo ... d_citizens However, treat that site with extreme caution and only believe what you read if you check it independently as it has material which is written either by idiots or liars. For example on that very page, the section "Incidents in which a shooter is believed to have planned an attack but retreated as a result of the presence of armed citizens" it has only two items: one where the attacker was, at best, deterred from one site and went elsewhere, and another where the attacker went elsewhere due to police presence with no mention of any armed civilians. I don't know how stupid you have to be to think that a mass shooting has been prevented if it has merely been moved elsewhere!

But overall, I would certainly expect that armed civilians have prevented or stopped attacks. This does not justify widespread posession of guns, as banning guns would prevent very many more.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by tom p » Tue May 31, 2022 7:52 am

jdc wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 9:13 pm
tom p wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 4:36 pm
a..eh.le politicians
Did you see the press conference with basketball coach and gun safety advocate Steve Kerr?

https://twitter.com/warriors/status/1529246789290934272

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3500893 ... e-to-pass/
So I ask you, [Senate Minority Leader] Mitch McConnell, I ask all of you senators who refuse to do anything about the violence and school shootings and supermarket shootings … I ask you, are you going to put your own desire for power ahead of the lives of our children and our elderly and our churchgoers?
That was really powerful & good

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Al Capone Junior » Tue May 31, 2022 10:49 pm

jdc wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 9:13 pm
tom p wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 4:36 pm
a..eh.le politicians
Did you see the press conference with basketball coach and gun safety advocate Steve Kerr?

https://twitter.com/warriors/status/1529246789290934272

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3500893 ... e-to-pass/
So I ask you, [Senate Minority Leader] Mitch McConnell, I ask all of you senators who refuse to do anything about the violence and school shootings and supermarket shootings … I ask you, are you going to put your own desire for power ahead of the lives of our children and our elderly and our churchgoers?
Steve Kerr just f.cking ROCKS.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by dyqik » Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:17 am

There's been at least 18 mass shootings since Uvalde:

https://twitter.com/ChrisMurphyCT/statu ... bHFTA&s=19

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Gfamily » Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:40 pm

In response to the Uvalde shootings a Florida school suspends its fund raising raffle of guns and rifles.
For a whole morning
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by monkey » Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:27 pm

And another one. Hospital, not school.

Several Shot and Some Are Killed in Attack at Tulsa Medical Building, Police Say https://nyti.ms/3tb2Lmp

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by kerrya1 » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:52 am

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:40 pm
In response to the Uvalde shootings a Florida school suspends its fund raising raffle of guns and rifles.
For a whole morning
Meanwhile in Edinburgh bake sales in school have been banned for promoting unhealthy food. :roll:

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by WFJ » Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:12 am

Little waster wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 10:36 am
shpalman wrote: ** - it's just about always a man, isn't it
Interesting point.

Is there any examples of a female mass shooter?
I don't like Mondays

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:00 pm

IvanV wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 11:16 am
Little waster wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 10:36 am
Is there any examples of a female mass shooter?
About 4% according to the FBI study cited in this Guardian article. But according to another study cited in this NPR article, it's only 2%. Either way, non-zero. I guess it depends precisely how you define a mass-shooter, and there is bound to be some uncertainty in trying to estimate the frequency of a rare event.

The latter article suggests it's related to the fact that around 96% of homicides are carried out by men, and that men more often use guns when carrying out those homicides. Although this interesting article points out that a high fraction of mass shooting incidents are primarily suicides, in that the perpetrator rarely expects to survive.
There's also this:
Of the 172 mass shooters studied, only four were women. In two cases, the women acted in partnership with a man.
https://projects.voanews.com/mass-shootings/

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:49 pm

Supreme Court strikes down New York gun law that put restrictions on concealed carry

https://twitter.com/scotusblog/status/1 ... gYvOT5JQ8Q
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by IvanV » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:49 pm
Supreme Court strikes down New York gun law that put restrictions on concealed carry

https://twitter.com/scotusblog/status/1 ... gYvOT5JQ8Q
Sadly, not a surprise. The 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Heller vs DC in effect did this to the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, t[T}he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the present members of the Supreme Court were only going to reinforce that.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Gfamily » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:26 pm

IvanV wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:49 pm
Supreme Court strikes down New York gun law that put restrictions on concealed carry

https://twitter.com/scotusblog/status/1 ... gYvOT5JQ8Q
Sadly, not a surprise. The 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Heller vs DC in effect did this to the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, t[T}he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the present members of the Supreme Court were only going to reinforce that.
Give me liberty or give me death. SCOTUS says, "well, why not both?"
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:29 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:26 pm
IvanV wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:49 pm
Supreme Court strikes down New York gun law that put restrictions on concealed carry

https://twitter.com/scotusblog/status/1 ... gYvOT5JQ8Q
Sadly, not a surprise. The 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Heller vs DC in effect did this to the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, t[T}he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the present members of the Supreme Court were only going to reinforce that.
Give me liberty or give me death. SCOTUS says, "well, why not both?"
They’ve done a drive by on Miranda rights too https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/23/politics ... index.html
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:48 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:29 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:26 pm
IvanV wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm

Sadly, not a surprise. The 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Heller vs DC in effect did this to the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, t[T}he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the present members of the Supreme Court were only going to reinforce that.
Give me liberty or give me death. SCOTUS says, "well, why not both?"
They’ve done a drive by on Miranda rights too https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/23/politics ... index.html
The Onion on Miranda rights https://www.theonion.com/report-79-of-m ... ce=twitter
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:05 pm

IvanV wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm
The 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Heller vs DC in effect did this to the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, t[T}he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the present members of the Supreme Court were only going to reinforce that.
That's what happens when you base something on a falsehood. The security of a free state is just as easily guaranteed by a standing army. Russia would not have been deterred from invading Ukraine by learning that every Ukranian had ten rifles and ten thousand rounds of ammunition.

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