US mass shooting of the day

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IvanV
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by IvanV » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:19 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:05 pm
IvanV wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm
The 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Heller vs DC in effect did this to the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, t[T}he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the present members of the Supreme Court were only going to reinforce that.
That's what happens when you base something on a falsehood. The security of a free state is just as easily guaranteed by a standing army. Russia would not have been deterred from invading Ukraine by learning that every Ukranian had ten rifles and ten thousand rounds of ammunition.
It used to be more nearly true 230 years ago, when administrations often didn't have enough money to pay for proper defence in the form of a properly paid standing army, and so depended to a greater extent on volunteer forces. At that time in Britain, for example in the Napoleonic Wars, commissioned officers weren't paid at all - rather used their position to corruptly gain advantage or were independently wealthy - and substantial parts of the forces were put together by press-gangs and the "King's Shilling" was a one-off payment, not a weekly wage.

One possible way of reading the amendment with that understanding, is that when you no longer need a militia, then the 2nd Amendment ceases to give you any right to keep and arm bears. Some sensible people have said that.
Ruth Bader Ginsberg wrote:When we no longer need people to keep muskets in their home, then the Second Amendment has no function ... If the Court had properly interpreted the Second Amendment, the Court would have said that amendment was very important when the nation was new; it gave a qualified right to keep and bear arms, but it was for one purpose only – and that was the purpose of having militiamen who were able to fight to preserve the nation.
Even Scala did not believe that the 2nd amendment was an unlimited right to keep and arm bears. But having dismissed the first half of it as having no practical effect, he was unable to point to any words of it that actually said so. Rather he seemed to rely on history.

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Little waster
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Little waster » Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:31 pm

well-regulated
Would also suggest the Founding Fathers never intended a free-for-all with any and all random yeoman routinely wandering around the marketplace brandishing loaded muskets in order to protect themselves from all the other musket-wielders.
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Stranger Mouse
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:12 am

Shooting at July 4 celebration

No I don’t mean the one in Illinois. There’s been another one in Philadelphia

The video is surreal - people running while the fireworks explode and the national anthem plays

https://twitter.com/royal0ui/status/154 ... 9xnfotp_GA
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Lew Dolby » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:09 am

and there were at least 2 other mass shootings in the US yesterday.

Finally, we seem to have reached the point when someone mentions a mass shooting on a particular day, the response is "Which one ??"
WOULD CUSTOMERS PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SITTING ON THE COUNTER BY THE BACON SLICER - AS WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE BEHIND IN OUR ORDERS.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Little waster » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:46 am

Lew Dolby wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:09 am
and there were at least 2 other mass shootings in the US yesterday.

Finally, we seem to have reached the point when someone mentions a mass shooting on a particular day, the response is "Which one ??"
Has anyone considered that the solution might be even more guns? I think that is an avenue we haven’t quite fully tested to destruction yet.
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by jaap » Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:42 am

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:12 am
Shooting at July 4 celebration

No I don’t mean the one in Illinois. There’s been another one in Philadelphia

The video is surreal - people running while the fireworks explode and the national anthem plays

https://twitter.com/royal0ui/status/154 ... 9xnfotp_GA
FYI, the national anthem audio was added after the fact.
Original video
It's still a messed up situation of course.

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Stranger Mouse
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:26 am

jaap wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:42 am
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:12 am
Shooting at July 4 celebration

No I don’t mean the one in Illinois. There’s been another one in Philadelphia

The video is surreal - people running while the fireworks explode and the national anthem plays

https://twitter.com/royal0ui/status/154 ... 9xnfotp_GA
FYI, the national anthem audio was added after the fact.
Original video
It's still a messed up situation of course.
Thanks for letting me know. I’m going to clean up my Twitter feed with regard to that.
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Martin Y
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:38 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:05 pm
IvanV wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm
The 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Heller vs DC in effect did this to the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, t[T}he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the present members of the Supreme Court were only going to reinforce that.
That's what happens when you base something on a falsehood. The security of a free state is just as easily guaranteed by a standing army. Russia would not have been deterred from invading Ukraine by learning that every Ukranian had ten rifles and ten thousand rounds of ammunition.
Depends on what sort of threat you want to guard against. Against invasion, sure. But a standing army might become the tool of a tyrant president who declared himself king. I don't know to what extent anxiety over the rise of a tyrant really is what the authors had in mind and to what extent it's retconned. I'm also curious about whether the free State they had in mind was only individual States or whether they meant the whole nation.

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Stranger Mouse
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:42 am

Illinois suspect arrested

I’m glad they caught him alive but it does make one wonder (not really) why others don’t survive the experience

https://twitter.com/dodgerman/status/15 ... L2MSg1TtAQ
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by dyqik » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:01 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:38 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:05 pm
IvanV wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm
The 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Heller vs DC in effect did this to the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, t[T}he right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the present members of the Supreme Court were only going to reinforce that.
That's what happens when you base something on a falsehood. The security of a free state is just as easily guaranteed by a standing army. Russia would not have been deterred from invading Ukraine by learning that every Ukranian had ten rifles and ten thousand rounds of ammunition.
Depends on what sort of threat you want to guard against. Against invasion, sure. But a standing army might become the tool of a tyrant president who declared himself king. I don't know to what extent anxiety over the rise of a tyrant really is what the authors had in mind and to what extent it's retconned. I'm also curious about whether the free State they had in mind was only individual States or whether they meant the whole nation.
If the Supreme Court cared about that, they wouldn't be issuing rulings making it nearly impossible to sue the actual tools of state oppression (police) for violating your rights.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by noggins » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:19 pm

Its not a falsehood from the founders perspective. To them the last 200+ years of european history was the story of the centre battling to get its hands in a standing army so it can enforce its will.

But of course this perspective has been spectacularly overtaken by events.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Al Capone Junior » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:56 pm

I think Uvalde pretty definitively showed that the solution to a bad guy in a school with an AR-15 and body armor is NOT a bunch of "good guys" with guns and body armor.

Uvalde showed us that the NRA and its gun nut members don't have the monopoly on bravely and heroically saving the day by protecting the children when there's a bad guy with a gun. The whole thing showed tremendous cowardice, an obvious fear of someone wearing body armor and wielding an assault rifle, and a completely unsurprising subsequent cover up all the way to the a..hole governor of tx and his cronies.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:01 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:42 am
Illinois suspect arrested

I’m glad they caught him alive but it does make one wonder (not really) why others don’t survive the experience

https://twitter.com/dodgerman/status/15 ... L2MSg1TtAQ
Was he armed at the time of the arrest, I wonder? Not that that always makes a difference where American police are concerned.

As far as I can tell, the shooter looks like he might well have been into far right stuff, as well as Trumpism*. A quick look at the sort of thing he was doing on social media indicates he was the kind of person that clearly should not have had any access to firearms. Anti-Jewish and anti-Biden flyers with a Trumpist slogan had been distributed in that area just a couple of months before and the area does apparently have a large Jewish population, and it appears at least one of the victims was of Mexican origin. It does look a lot like racism/white nationalism may have played a role, but that's based on things fitting a pattern rather than hard evidence.


*yes, I realise that I did basically just repeat myself

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Al Capone Junior » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:27 pm

I highly doubt the Illinois shooter's trumpism or hatred of Jews, Mexicans, or anyone else will be any kind of surprise to anyone. Rather they could have been reasonably predicted ahead of time, just like it could have been reasonably predicted that this guy should absolutely not have been allowed to have firearms of any kind (let alone have been freely allowed to have assault rifles)

f.ck the 2nd ammendment. This carnage will never end as long as we keep equating our cock sizes to our gun collections

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:28 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:01 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:38 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:05 pm


That's what happens when you base something on a falsehood. The security of a free state is just as easily guaranteed by a standing army. Russia would not have been deterred from invading Ukraine by learning that every Ukranian had ten rifles and ten thousand rounds of ammunition.
Depends on what sort of threat you want to guard against. Against invasion, sure. But a standing army might become the tool of a tyrant president who declared himself king. I don't know to what extent anxiety over the rise of a tyrant really is what the authors had in mind and to what extent it's retconned. I'm also curious about whether the free State they had in mind was only individual States or whether they meant the whole nation.
If the Supreme Court cared about that, they wouldn't be issuing rulings making it nearly impossible to sue the actual tools of state oppression (police) for violating your rights.
Alas, the authors did not think to devise a protection against a rampaging Supreme Court.

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Stranger Mouse
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:40 pm

Illinois shooting suspect owned all his guns (at least two rifles plus pistols) legally and disguised himself as a woman presumably to avoid detection.I hope the “trans are groomers”crowd don’t use this.
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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by tom p » Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:17 pm

Al Capone Junior wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:27 pm
I highly doubt the Illinois shooter's trumpism or hatred of Jews, Mexicans, or anyone else will be any kind of surprise to anyone. Rather they could have been reasonably predicted ahead of time, just like it could have been reasonably predicted that this guy should absolutely not have been allowed to have firearms of any kind (let alone have been freely allowed to have assault rifles)

f.ck the 2nd ammendment. This carnage will never end as long as we keep equating our cock sizes to our gun collections
In all fairness, everyone equates cock size to gun collections, it's just that those of us who aren't murderous lunatics are fully aware that they are negatively correlated

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:22 pm

tom p wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:17 pm
Al Capone Junior wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:27 pm
I highly doubt the Illinois shooter's trumpism or hatred of Jews, Mexicans, or anyone else will be any kind of surprise to anyone. Rather they could have been reasonably predicted ahead of time, just like it could have been reasonably predicted that this guy should absolutely not have been allowed to have firearms of any kind (let alone have been freely allowed to have assault rifles)

f.ck the 2nd ammendment. This carnage will never end as long as we keep equating our cock sizes to our gun collections
In all fairness, everyone equates cock size to gun collections, it's just that those of us who aren't murderous lunatics are fully aware that they are negatively correlated
Does that mean my Deringer means I have a huge cock?
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by monkey » Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:48 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:40 pm
...and disguised himself as a woman presumably to avoid detection.I hope the “trans are groomers”crowd don’t use this.
Consider your hopes dashed. To be honest, I'm not sure why you had them in the first place.

Not linking to the tweets I found.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:32 pm

He'd previously harassed a synagogue in the area, it seems. He apparently left after being sternly told to leave by the rabbi, but the synagogue apparently had an armed security guard, which may well have influenced how that played out.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:45 am

Martin Y wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:38 am
But a standing army might become the tool of a tyrant president who declared himself king. I don't know to what extent anxiety over the rise of a tyrant really is what the authors had in mind and to what extent it's retconned.
Given the way the USA was created by rebelling against the king, I can see it would have been definitely a factor. However, there's no provision in the constitution banning a standing army, so I can only guess that they felt it could go either way - a standing army could also depose a tyrant unless it supported him.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:47 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:01 pm
A quick look at the sort of thing he was doing on social media indicates he was the kind of person that clearly should not have had any access to firearms.
From https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 16568.html:
Robert Crimo, the 21-year-old man charged with killing seven in the July 4 mass shooting in Highland Park, threatened to “kill everyone” in his home with a “collection of knives” three years before he allegedly went on his shooting rampage.

Officials revealed in a press conference on Tuesday afternoon that law enforcement were called to his home for two incidents involving the suspect in 2019 – but he was still able to legally purchase five firearms.

On the second time – in September 2019 – police were called to a report from a family member that Mr Crimo had vowed to “kill” the people inside the home and that he had a trove of knives.

Officers responded to the scene and found Mr Crimo had 16 knives, a dagger and a sword.

The knives were confiscated but officers did not arrest the suspect because no complaint was made by the alleged victims.
So his right to keep and bear arms did not extend to knives - only guns.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by jimbob » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:44 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:47 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:01 pm
A quick look at the sort of thing he was doing on social media indicates he was the kind of person that clearly should not have had any access to firearms.
From https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 16568.html:
Robert Crimo, the 21-year-old man charged with killing seven in the July 4 mass shooting in Highland Park, threatened to “kill everyone” in his home with a “collection of knives” three years before he allegedly went on his shooting rampage.

Officials revealed in a press conference on Tuesday afternoon that law enforcement were called to his home for two incidents involving the suspect in 2019 – but he was still able to legally purchase five firearms.

On the second time – in September 2019 – police were called to a report from a family member that Mr Crimo had vowed to “kill” the people inside the home and that he had a trove of knives.

Officers responded to the scene and found Mr Crimo had 16 knives, a dagger and a sword.

The knives were confiscated but officers did not arrest the suspect because no complaint was made by the alleged victims.
So his right to keep and bear arms did not extend to knives - only guns.
lethally ridiculous
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:46 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:47 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:01 pm
A quick look at the sort of thing he was doing on social media indicates he was the kind of person that clearly should not have had any access to firearms.
From https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 16568.html:
Robert Crimo, the 21-year-old man charged with killing seven in the July 4 mass shooting in Highland Park, threatened to “kill everyone” in his home with a “collection of knives” three years before he allegedly went on his shooting rampage.

Officials revealed in a press conference on Tuesday afternoon that law enforcement were called to his home for two incidents involving the suspect in 2019 – but he was still able to legally purchase five firearms.

On the second time – in September 2019 – police were called to a report from a family member that Mr Crimo had vowed to “kill” the people inside the home and that he had a trove of knives.

Officers responded to the scene and found Mr Crimo had 16 knives, a dagger and a sword.

The knives were confiscated but officers did not arrest the suspect because no complaint was made by the alleged victims.
So his right to keep and bear arms did not extend to knives - only guns.
I assume that Crimo would have been a minor in 2019, which may have affected things.

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Re: US mass shooting of the day

Post by Al Capone Junior » Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:59 pm

Uvalde officer had gunman in sights of rifle before gunman entered school

Was waiting for supervisor's permission to fire. At a man who was wearing body armor and carrying an AR-15. Who was about to enter. A. f.cking. school.

I'm not a hero and I totally suck at breaking down doors and such. But I take that shot and face the consequences later.

I'm quite sure all the kops involved in this fiasco and cover up are excellent at bravely harassing and arresting unarmed ppl for petty drug crimes tho*. [Not the border patrol, they actually did the job that the rest of them refused to do]

*a very safe bet in Uvalde

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