New European Super League

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Gfamily
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Re: New European Super League

Post by Gfamily » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:36 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:41 pm
Well, it would appear that of the twelve clubs, Chelsea and Man City are the two with the deftest conscience.
The knockout stages came earlier than expected

paraphrased from someone else's tweet
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bob sterman
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Re: New European Super League

Post by bob sterman » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:02 am

Gfamily wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:36 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:41 pm
Well, it would appear that of the twelve clubs, Chelsea and Man City are the two with the deftest conscience.
The knockout stages came earlier than expected

paraphrased from someone else's tweet
There are some people on Twitter! They think it's all over . . . it is now!!! :D

Mamil
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Re: New European Super League

Post by Mamil » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:19 am

Trinucleus wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:08 pm
Many years ago, Chesterfield went through an interesting period:

Hello, I'd like to buy your club

Great

Thing is, at the moment my sports empire hasn't got enough cash, can you lend me the money please

No problem

The deal went through, as obviously the Football League confirmed he was a fit and proper person to own a football club

The guy was later sent to prison for fraud

Similar thing happened to Exeter City about 20 years ago with somebody who had made Scarborough FC insolvent taking over and eventually being sent down for fraud. Mind you this led to the joy of Uri Geller being chairperson for a while and Michael Jackson coming to address fans.

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Re: New European Super League

Post by TopBadger » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:39 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:55 pm
JQH wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:52 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:21 pm

Indeed, whilst legal and apparently not corrupt (though it has an air of it), the fact that the Glazers were able to get finance to buy Manchester United's shares using the club's assets which they didn't yet own as security is f.cking insane and should've been illegal*.

*I may have portions of this wrong but that was my understanding at the time
I got a loan to buy my flat by putting up the flat I didn't yet own as security for the loan. I'm not sure you could criminalise the Glazers' actions without abolishing mortgages.
In practice, it's fairly easy to avoid that problem, as real estate has a very different legal status to a publicly traded corporation.
This practice is also common in M&A... IIRC its called a leveraged buyout... the asset/business being bought becomes the collateral (or at least the lions share of it) for the loan.

Buyers like it because it lowers the cost of entry to the market (few businesses can complete a take over in cash), banks like it because they get to charge interest on the loan. Its essentially a form of risk/reward sharing.
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Re: New European Super League

Post by tom p » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:45 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:39 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:55 pm
JQH wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:52 pm


I got a loan to buy my flat by putting up the flat I didn't yet own as security for the loan. I'm not sure you could criminalise the Glazers' actions without abolishing mortgages.
In practice, it's fairly easy to avoid that problem, as real estate has a very different legal status to a publicly traded corporation.
This practice is also common in M&A... IIRC its called a leveraged buyout... the asset/business being bought becomes the collateral (or at least the lions share of it) for the loan.

Buyers like it because it lowers the cost of entry to the market (few businesses can complete a take over in cash), banks like it because they get to charge interest on the loan. Its essentially a form of risk/reward sharing.
Except there's no real risk to the buyer. The company you have bought assumes the debt. If your new company gets declared bankrupt, it's probably some patsy you put in as director who will be barred from company directorship for a year or two, rather than you. You didn't pay anything to own the company, so you, the buyer, lose nothing (other than the fees you paid to arrange the finance, but you will surely have claimed those back by milking the company you bought straight away).
The banks might have some risk (although they will own various assets if it goes wrong and will get most of their money back), but they are willingly going into this deal and (should) know what they are doing.
The only real risk is entirely transferred to the employees (and, in the case of a football club, to the fans), who will be the only parties to really lose out if it goes tits-up and who don't have any say in the matter.

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Martin_B
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Re: New European Super League

Post by Martin_B » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:25 am

tom p wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:45 pm
TopBadger wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:39 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:55 pm


In practice, it's fairly easy to avoid that problem, as real estate has a very different legal status to a publicly traded corporation.
This practice is also common in M&A... IIRC its called a leveraged buyout... the asset/business being bought becomes the collateral (or at least the lions share of it) for the loan.

Buyers like it because it lowers the cost of entry to the market (few businesses can complete a take over in cash), banks like it because they get to charge interest on the loan. Its essentially a form of risk/reward sharing.
Except there's no real risk to the buyer. The company you have bought assumes the debt. If your new company gets declared bankrupt, it's probably some patsy you put in as director who will be barred from company directorship for a year or two, rather than you. You didn't pay anything to own the company, so you, the buyer, lose nothing (other than the fees you paid to arrange the finance, but you will surely have claimed those back by milking the company you bought straight away).
The banks might have some risk (although they will own various assets if it goes wrong and will get most of their money back), but they are willingly going into this deal and (should) know what they are doing.
The only real risk is entirely transferred to the employees (and, in the case of a football club, to the fans), who will be the only parties to really lose out if it goes tits-up and who don't have any say in the matter.
For Manchester United, I recall that the fans tried to buy shares to stop the take-over by the Glazers, but they simply didn't have the financial clout to buy enough shares and the major shareholders were being offered a premium by the Glazers to sell to them. United went from being a pretty well-run club who had to balance their books and report to the shareholders in line with other publicly run companies, to (I think) the most debt-ridden club in the world overnight.
And Sir Rudolph Ferguson covered himself in no glory at the time by backing the Glazers, although I suppose antagonising your likely future employer probably wouldn't be a good career move. Also United have won 5 Premierships, a Champions League, an FA Cup and 4 League Cups under the Glazers, so despite the debt they've not done badly on the pitch in the last 15 years.
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Re: New European Super League

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:43 am

tom p wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:45 pm
Except there's no real risk to the buyer. The company you have bought assumes the debt. If your new company gets declared bankrupt, it's probably some patsy you put in as director who will be barred from company directorship for a year or two, rather than you.
That very much depends on the deal you set up. Any lenders involved may have required personal guarantees or external collateral. This may work like when you get a mortage loan for your house. If the bank forces a sale to recover its debt, you personally still owe it for any shortfall (though in America they have "no recourse" loans for your home where you cannot be liable for shortfall). Generally, the sort of people who do big business deals and appear to be very wealthy have most of their assets used as collateral in a complicated dependency between the different things that they are doing, which is why if one part of their empire goes bad the whole thing collapses and they make it to the newspapers.

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Re: New European Super Non-League

Post by Grumble » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:50 am

I’m delighted to see Stockport getting in on the action.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sp ... 0419207270
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

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Re: New European Super Non-League

Post by Martin_B » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:22 am

Grumble wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:50 am
I’m delighted to see Stockport getting in on the action.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sp ... 0419207270
Blatant anti-Woking FC bias!
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Re: New European Super Non-League

Post by tom p » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:16 am

Martin_B wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:22 am
Grumble wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:50 am
I’m delighted to see Stockport getting in on the action.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sp ... 0419207270
Blatant anti-Woking FC bias!
Have you seen the National League table? Woking being included would be more of a joke than Spurs being in the ESL

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Re: New European Super League

Post by tom p » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:22 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:43 am
tom p wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:45 pm
Except there's no real risk to the buyer. The company you have bought assumes the debt. If your new company gets declared bankrupt, it's probably some patsy you put in as director who will be barred from company directorship for a year or two, rather than you.
That very much depends on the deal you set up. Any lenders involved may have required personal guarantees or external collateral. This may work like when you get a mortage loan for your house. If the bank forces a sale to recover its debt, you personally still owe it for any shortfall (though in America they have "no recourse" loans for your home where you cannot be liable for shortfall). Generally, the sort of people who do big business deals and appear to be very wealthy have most of their assets used as collateral in a complicated dependency between the different things that they are doing, which is why if one part of their empire goes bad the whole thing collapses and they make it to the newspapers.
Even if they did require a personal guarantee, it's a truism that is you owe the bank a hundred quid, then you have a problem; whereas if you owe the bank a 100 million quid, then they have a problem. That's how come t'rump was able to keep milking Deutsche Bank, 'cos they needed him not to fail. Essentially his debt was too big to fail.

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Re: New European Super League

Post by noggins » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:08 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:41 pm
Well, it would appear that of the twelve clubs, Chelsea and Man City are the two with the deftest conscience.
they are reputation laundries rather than cash cows

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