Jews Don't Count

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Tessa K
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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Sat May 08, 2021 3:50 pm

bjn wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:34 am
Squeak wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:38 am
Meritocracy is one of those wonderful ideals that turns out to be a wonderful cover for not actually changing the status quo. Forcing people to actively consider whether their idea of merit is actually just their old prejudices in shiny new clothes is really important. And sadly, ingrained biases are really hard to root out.
Michael Dunlop Young, the chap who coined the word Meritocracy did so sarcastically in the essay The Rise Of The Meritocracy. It pointed out that selection bias would be a thing, that it would lead to a set of smug self selected folk who think they deserve to be there, shutting out others.
Michael Dunlop Young wrote:It is good sense to appoint individual people to jobs on their merit. It is the opposite when those who are judged to have merit of a particular kind harden into a new social class without room in it for others.
Thatcher was often banging on about meritocracy. She said:
I again insisted on keeping the grammar schools because there were people like me who needed grammar schools to climb the ladder to be equal to the people who started in at the top, and that was twisted, that it was elitist, and I said it is not elitist at all, it doesn't matter what your background is. I believe in merit, I belong to meritocracy, and I don't care two hoots what your background is. What I am concerned with is whatever your background, you have a chance to climb to the top.
No you didn't. You really didn't.

https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/105089

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Squeak » Sat May 08, 2021 10:27 pm

bjn wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:34 am
Squeak wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:38 am
Meritocracy is one of those wonderful ideals that turns out to be a wonderful cover for not actually changing the status quo. Forcing people to actively consider whether their idea of merit is actually just their old prejudices in shiny new clothes is really important. And sadly, ingrained biases are really hard to root out.
Michael Dunlop Young, the chap who coined the word Meritocracy did so sarcastically in the essay The Rise Of The Meritocracy. It pointed out that selection bias would be a thing, that it would lead to a set of smug self selected folk who think they deserve to be there, shutting out others.
Michael Dunlop Young wrote:It is good sense to appoint individual people to jobs on their merit. It is the opposite when those who are judged to have merit of a particular kind harden into a new social class without room in it for others.
Thank you. I was trying to remember something very similar to that group.

I doubt that there is a single woman/person of colour/other visibly marginalised person on this forum who can't give you stories of the times they were markedly discriminated against by people who consider themselves enlightened and oh-so-unbiased. And they'll have many, many stories about the opportunities that didn't quite happen for reasons that they can't quite be sure had nothing to do with their external characteristics. But somehow, all those people who "don't see" gender, skin colour, Jewish surnames, etc make very similar decisions to the people who very definitely users to see those characteristics. Now with added smugness.

Also, please note that Millennie Al is pairing examples where the marginalised candidate is objectively worse than their rivals. This is a fabulous straw man because I don't know of any positive discrimination programs where the selectors are being asked to do that. They may be asked to readvertise or to headhunt people of particular merit or to justify why their selection efforts keep failing to achieve a diversity of outcomes. All of those are very different to simply appointing rubbish candidates and so discriminating against the poor hard-working member of the dominant class.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Millennie Al » Sun May 09, 2021 2:51 am

Squeak wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:38 am
All this assumes that the person deciding the merits of the candidates is truly impartial and I believe it's been repeatedly shown that people are much better at thinking they're impartial than at actually being impartial. The classic example shown to demonstrate this is the Philadelphia orchestra, which tried to gender-balance their hiring decisions by picking the best candidates regardless of gender, with minimal effect until they started auditioning musicians behind a screen. It turns out that these well-meaning selectors were as biased as the society they grew up in.
I should say that you are merely proving my point - that the goal is to reduce prejudice.

However, I feel that honesty compels me to say that sever doubts have been cast over the blind auditions - both in that classic example (https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/ ... fit-women/) and in other areas (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/ ... dy/8664888) suggesting that it's a great idea but doesn't actually work. That's actually rather disappointing.
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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Millennie Al » Sun May 09, 2021 3:04 am

Squeak wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 10:27 pm
Also, please note that Millennie Al is pairing examples where the marginalised candidate is objectively worse than their rivals. This is a fabulous straw man because I don't know of any positive discrimination programs where the selectors are being asked to do that.
Then you need to learn about things like the All-women shortlists in UK poilitics.
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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by nekomatic » Sun May 09, 2021 8:55 am

How do you determine whether one political candidate is objectively worse than another?

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by bjn » Sun May 09, 2021 9:01 am

Does Al work for Spiked?

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Sun May 09, 2021 10:57 am

nekomatic wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:55 am
How do you determine whether one political candidate is objectively worse than another?
I work on the principal that all politicians are a sub-species of human.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Millennie Al » Mon May 10, 2021 12:29 am

nekomatic wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:55 am
How do you determine whether one political candidate is objectively worse than another?
If you're selecting a candidate that you hope to become an MP, you could look at any past achievements. For example, they might have been elected to student union positions, or on local councils, or been involved internally in the local party or in campaigning where you can get some idea of how they can inspire others to follow them. Of course, if you have no objective grounds, you might as well choose at random - it's less effort.
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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by philbo » Tue May 11, 2021 8:26 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:55 am
How do you determine whether one political candidate is objectively worse than another?
I have tried to go to at least one hustings (for GEs, anyway) so I can see what the candidates are like: I'd say they've nearly all been what has made my mind up who to vote for for the last 25 years or so. It has usually been pretty clear who was really not worth voting for, though I do recognize I'm a bit of an intellectual snob, so the inability to think is usually a big negative.. however, these people are inevitably the ones who get elected.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun May 16, 2021 6:34 pm

tom p wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:29 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:20 pm
noggins wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:04 am
I think

“we stand against anti-Semitism and all types of Racism”

Isnt just a diversion

From some mouths it means

“we stand against anti-Semitism and all types of Racism [eg the apartheid policies of the colonialist Zionist state]”
Yes, it's no small irony that Israeli policy is probably one of the main drivers of antisemitism on the left.

Obviously it's completely possible - and indeed entirely congruent - to be opposed to the racist colonialist policies of Israel and be against antisemitism, as many Jewish people and indeed many Israelis are. But people on both sides of the argument conflate Israeli policy with Jewishness, which is profoundly unhelpful.
Massively.
I do wonder if the fake accusations of antisemitism that Israel has repeatedly made against pretty much all criticism of its policies over the last 20 or so years (they may have been doing it earlier, but I wasn't aware) have led some people to conclude that if reasonable criticism of Israel's latest outrage is antisemitic, then maybe antisemitism isn't such a bad thing, in a boy who cried wolf sort of way.
Depressingly, but predictably, it seems that anti-Semitic hate crimes have indeed risen in the UK is response to Israel's latest atrocities. https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-isra ... e-of-jews/

Holding British Jews in general responsible for the actions of a rogue state should be just as unacceptable as holding British Muslims in general responsible for the acts of terrorist groups.
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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Brightonian » Sun May 16, 2021 8:35 pm

An upleasant video from Finchley Road, London of a procession of cars going to yesterday's demo. I think part of Finchley Road goes through the Jewish area of North London (though I don't know where in the Finchley Road this was - it's a long road). There have been assertions that it's been faked or done by agents provocateurs but my feeling is it's genuine. Four people have been arrested.

https://twitter.com/gunnerpunner/status ... 29248?s=19

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun May 16, 2021 8:55 pm

Grim. What a stain on the protest. I'm glad arrests have been made (assuming they got the right folk) - loads of people must have known who they are.
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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Mon May 17, 2021 8:02 am

Brightonian wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 8:35 pm
An upleasant video from Finchley Road, London of a procession of cars going to yesterday's demo. I think part of Finchley Road goes through the Jewish area of North London (though I don't know where in the Finchley Road this was - it's a long road). There have been assertions that it's been faked or done by agents provocateurs but my feeling is it's genuine. Four people have been arrested.

https://twitter.com/gunnerpunner/status ... 29248?s=19
According to the BBC report it was in the St John's Wood area

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57137151

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by individualmember » Sun May 23, 2021 8:29 am

I’ve now finished reading David Baddiel’s polemic. I going to read it again straight away, I think I’ll get a lot more out of it second time round. I both identify very closely with him and also not at all, in a certain sense the feeling of outsider-ship is common, and the anger around it, but the reason behind it is different (but still basically accident-of-birth).

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Sun May 23, 2021 11:05 am

Some of the pro-Palestinian demos are getting dangerously anti-Semitic.

https://twitter.com/Baddiel/status/1396157059129876485

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:22 am

Good article by Baddiel here on why classifying antisemitism as racism can be problematic for some people, both Jewish and not.
The issue seems to be that describing antisemitism as racism implies Jews as therefore categorised as a race, or an ethnicity, and the problem with that seems to be, to put it banally, “that’s what Hitler did.” This attitude isn’t quite as prevalent here, but it is the reason, apparently, why the UK Census continues to have no box in its Ethnicity section for Jewish – they based this decision on research from 2011 saying a sizeable proportion of UK Jews saw bad echoes in being offered that classification.
https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnist ... s-1.517384

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:52 am

Also, It's interesting that when I talk to some people about the book they assume I'm interested because my great grandmother's family were Sephardi. I'm not Jewish although I do consider myself a tiny bit mixed race - but you don't have to have skin in the game to care about human rights.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by bjn » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:15 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:22 am
Good article by Baddiel here on why classifying antisemitism as racism can be problematic for some people, both Jewish and not.
The issue seems to be that describing antisemitism as racism implies Jews as therefore categorised as a race, or an ethnicity, and the problem with that seems to be, to put it banally, “that’s what Hitler did.” This attitude isn’t quite as prevalent here, but it is the reason, apparently, why the UK Census continues to have no box in its Ethnicity section for Jewish – they based this decision on research from 2011 saying a sizeable proportion of UK Jews saw bad echoes in being offered that classification.
https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnist ... s-1.517384
Just read it. Surely the argument should be that if some one subjects you to discrimination based on their perception of your "race"* or ethnicity, then you are being subject to racism and that should be fought regardless of whatever it is you are?


*scare quotes because I hate the term race as an objective classification, because it is no such thing.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by monkey » Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:16 pm

bjn wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:15 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:22 am
Good article by Baddiel here on why classifying antisemitism as racism can be problematic for some people, both Jewish and not.
The issue seems to be that describing antisemitism as racism implies Jews as therefore categorised as a race, or an ethnicity, and the problem with that seems to be, to put it banally, “that’s what Hitler did.” This attitude isn’t quite as prevalent here, but it is the reason, apparently, why the UK Census continues to have no box in its Ethnicity section for Jewish – they based this decision on research from 2011 saying a sizeable proportion of UK Jews saw bad echoes in being offered that classification.
https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnist ... s-1.517384
Just read it. Surely the argument should be that if some one subjects you to discrimination based on their perception of your "race"* or ethnicity, then you are being subject to racism and that should be fought regardless of whatever it is you are?


*scare quotes because I hate the term race as an objective classification, because it is no such thing.
I don't think he's suggesting that it shouldn't. I read it as a piece about how Jews identify themselves and how others identify them, which is important when it comes to understanding antisemitism. You have to understand it before you can fight it properly and not every article has to be about the fight.


*And just because race is a social construct, it doesn't mean it isn't a thing and doesn't affect people's lives in very real ways. Putting scare quotes around the word may diminish the impact of what you say, because it might give the impression that you don't take it seriously (I'm sure you do, mind. Not suggesting you don't).

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:59 am

monkey wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:16 pm


*And just because race is a social construct, it doesn't mean it isn't a thing and doesn't affect people's lives in very real ways. Putting scare quotes around the word may diminish the impact of what you say, because it might give the impression that you don't take it seriously (I'm sure you do, mind. Not suggesting you don't).
Yep. Telling people their prejudice is based on a wrong idea doesn't make that prejudice go away.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by bjn » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:20 pm

I kinda thought that was the point I was making. Race is a social construct, not a biological reality, which is why racism is beyond being wrong.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by dyqik » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:37 pm

bjn wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:20 pm
"I" kinda "thought" "that" "was" the "point" "I" "was" "making". "Race" is* a "social" "construct", not a "biological" "reality", which is "why" "racism" is* "beyond" "being" "wrong".
Erm, if we put scare quotes around all the social and human constructs in your posts, we're going to run out of them. ;)

*Only arguable if you're Bill Clinton.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:50 am

bjn wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:20 pm
I kinda thought that was the point I was making. Race is a social construct, not a biological reality, which is why racism is beyond being wrong.
I was agreeing with you.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by discovolante » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:18 am

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:59 am
monkey wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:16 pm


*And just because race is a social construct, it doesn't mean it isn't a thing and doesn't affect people's lives in very real ways. Putting scare quotes around the word may diminish the impact of what you say, because it might give the impression that you don't take it seriously (I'm sure you do, mind. Not suggesting you don't).
Yep. Telling people their prejudice is based on a wrong idea doesn't make that prejudice go away.
I'm reading 'What White People Can Do Next' by Emma Dabiri, and that is kind of what she is doing (arguing that race is a social colonialist/capitalist construct designed to divide and rule and that everyone needs to understand that to move past it and find a common cause).

Late eta: this is of course in the context mainly of anti black racism and the creation of the concept of 'whiteness' generally.
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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:21 am

discovolante wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:18 am
Tessa K wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:59 am
monkey wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:16 pm


*And just because race is a social construct, it doesn't mean it isn't a thing and doesn't affect people's lives in very real ways. Putting scare quotes around the word may diminish the impact of what you say, because it might give the impression that you don't take it seriously (I'm sure you do, mind. Not suggesting you don't).
Yep. Telling people their prejudice is based on a wrong idea doesn't make that prejudice go away.
I'm reading 'What White People Can Do Next' by Emma Dabiri, and that is kind of what she is doing (arguing that race is a social colonialist/capitalist construct designed to divide and rule and that everyone needs to understand that to move past it and find a common cause).

Late eta: this is of course in the context mainly of anti black racism and the creation of the concept of 'whiteness' generally.
It's an aspect of Othering, asserting that whatever group you belong to is superior to all others and often using religion or other cultural artefacts as a justification. That's a global phenomenon, pre-colonial and pre-capitalist, but these two gave it extra power, a wider reach and pseudo-scientific 'justification'.

So while racism is based on social constructs, it's part of an inherent human tendency as social animals. The way to deal with it is to make people see a larger group as Us rather than Them. Encouraging kids to mix at school is one way to do it. Either that or being forced to unite globally to resist an alien invasion.

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