Scrutable

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:46 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:33 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:15 pm

Labour are trying to represent two different constituencies - metropolitan progressives, and former-industrial-area workers.

Both groups may be at the bottom of the economic totem pole, but beyond that there's little solidarity or class consciousness: in fact, they hate each other seemingly more than they hate the ruling class.

I don't think the metropolitan progressives are at the bottom of the economic totem pole. They're typically someone who has a degree and works in an office with regular hours. Certainly they are in a far more precarious position than their parents. But they aren't working zero hours contracts in places like care homes or fast food places.

So not surprising that there isn't much solidarity. Each has different interests and knows it.

Pretty sure the fast food and gig workers are likely Labour voters too. It's not as simple as only those two groups.

But there are policies that can unite them. How about Green New Deal stuff? Use it to create jobs where they're needed and make the cities nicer to live in. If Labour need something to focus on, that'd be a goodun.

I'd add that they need to be very loud about principles of honesty and integrity.

nezumi wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:51 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:46 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:33 pm

I don't think the metropolitan progressives are at the bottom of the economic totem pole. They're typically someone who has a degree and works in an office with regular hours. Certainly they are in a far more precarious position than their parents. But they aren't working zero hours contracts in places like care homes or fast food places.

So not surprising that there isn't much solidarity. Each has different interests and knows it.

Pretty sure the fast food and gig workers are likely Labour voters too. It's not as simple as only those two groups.

But there are policies that can unite them. How about Green New Deal stuff? Use it to create jobs where they're needed and make the cities nicer to live in. If Labour need something to focus on, that'd be a goodun.

I'd add that they need to be very loud about principles of honesty and integrity.

And being true to their principles. Compare and contrast: Sturgeon calling a fascist and a racist a fascist and a racist (admittedly someone standing against her in her constituency who had deliberately accosted her rather than a 'woman on the street') vs Gordon Brown mumbling about a bigoted woman in the back of his car, and 'control immigration' mugs.

Also the GND is sort of what I was alluding to in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2425&start=50#p80805 so I agree. Obviously a complicated and enormous task, but also essential, really.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:57 pm

nezumi wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:51 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:46 pm

Pretty sure the fast food and gig workers are likely Labour voters too. It's not as simple as only those two groups.

But there are policies that can unite them. How about Green New Deal stuff? Use it to create jobs where they're needed and make the cities nicer to live in. If Labour need something to focus on, that'd be a goodun.

I'd add that they need to be very loud about principles of honesty and integrity.

And being true to their principles. Compare and contrast: Sturgeon calling a fascist and a racist a fascist and a racist (admittedly someone standing against her in her constituency who had deliberately accosted her rather than a 'woman on the street') vs Gordon Brown mumbling about a bigoted woman in the back of his car, and 'control immigration' mugs.

Also the GND is sort of what I was alluding to in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2425&start=50#p80805 so I agree. Obviously a complicated and enormous task, but also essential, really.

Sturgeon was talking to a rival though. Brown was talking to, then about, a (former) Labour voter.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:33 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:15 pm

Labour are trying to represent two different constituencies - metropolitan progressives, and former-industrial-area workers.

Both groups may be at the bottom of the economic totem pole, but beyond that there's little solidarity or class consciousness: in fact, they hate each other seemingly more than they hate the ruling class.

I don't think the metropolitan progressives are at the bottom of the economic totem pole. They're typically someone who has a degree and works in an office with regular hours. Certainly they are in a far more precarious position than their parents. But they aren't working zero hours contracts in places like care homes or fast food places.

So not surprising that there isn't much solidarity. Each has different interests and knows it.

I don't think Corbyn's support base, for instance, was actually particularly skewed towards degree-holding office workers. (Although working for a crap wage in an office could still be bottom of the economic totem pole, especially given the cost of living around London). That's more a media stereotype than reality. And so many young folk have degrees now that it's not quite the class marker it used to be.

In general they are younger, of course. Which means people who generally lack clearly-defined career ladders, long-term contracts and the expectation of internal promotion. Unpaid overtime is the default. Insecure housing in a poor state of repair, and little hope of owning one themselves. Drowning in debt in a stagnant economy. An oncoming climate catastrophe causing heatwaves, floods and massive waves of refugee migration. Plus somehow paying for all the ancient decrepit boomers' lavish retirement lifestyles out of our sh.t wages, while still paying them rent for all the houses they've snaffled.


It shouldn't be difficult to come up with a platform around workers' pay and conditions, renters' rights, sorting the climate out and not being bigoted c.nts. Fund it by taxing corporations and the mega-rich, because nobody likes them anyway, and a tax on wealth. The 2019 manifesto was pretty good on those areas, but apparently too complicated and too specific as well as being tarred with the anti-Corbyn brush. Just pick a few key policies and bang on about them forever, preferably using spokespeople you could imagine digging a hole or cleaning a toilet.

Grumble wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:00 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:57 pm

nezumi wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:51 pm

I'd add that they need to be very loud about principles of honesty and integrity.

And being true to their principles. Compare and contrast: Sturgeon calling a fascist and a racist a fascist and a racist (admittedly someone standing against her in her constituency who had deliberately accosted her rather than a 'woman on the street') vs Gordon Brown mumbling about a bigoted woman in the back of his car, and 'control immigration' mugs.

Also the GND is sort of what I was alluding to in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2425&start=50#p80805 so I agree. Obviously a complicated and enormous task, but also essential, really.

Sturgeon was talking to a rival though. Brown was talking to, then about, a (former) Labour voter.

As I acknowledged in my post...it was a different situation, but there's an issue with trying to appease people that you don't really like that labour don't seem to be that good at.

nezumi wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:51 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:46 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:33 pm

I don't think the metropolitan progressives are at the bottom of the economic totem pole. They're typically someone who has a degree and works in an office with regular hours. Certainly they are in a far more precarious position than their parents. But they aren't working zero hours contracts in places like care homes or fast food places.

So not surprising that there isn't much solidarity. Each has different interests and knows it.

Pretty sure the fast food and gig workers are likely Labour voters too. It's not as simple as only those two groups.

But there are policies that can unite them. How about Green New Deal stuff? Use it to create jobs where they're needed and make the cities nicer to live in. If Labour need something to focus on, that'd be a goodun.

I'd add that they need to be very loud about principles of honesty and integrity.

Serious question: what's the reason for thinking people who've switched their vote to people like Farage and Johnson give the slightest crap about honesty and integrity from politicians?

Although I think Labour need to work out what their principles actually are before they can be vociferously true to them.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:08 pm

Grumble wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:00 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:57 pm

And being true to their principles. Compare and contrast: Sturgeon calling a fascist and a racist a fascist and a racist (admittedly someone standing against her in her constituency who had deliberately accosted her rather than a 'woman on the street') vs Gordon Brown mumbling about a bigoted woman in the back of his car, and 'control immigration' mugs.

Also the GND is sort of what I was alluding to in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2425&start=50#p80805 so I agree. Obviously a complicated and enormous task, but also essential, really.

Sturgeon was talking to a rival though. Brown was talking to, then about, a (former) Labour voter.

As I acknowledged in my post...it was a different situation, but there's an issue with trying to appease people that you don't really like that labour don't seem to be that good at.

They should opt for the Tory approach of treating all members of the public with utter contempt

But seriously though, you're right about this. And about green new deals, which probably deserve their own thread. If Biden et al. can get some good stuff through, Labour can copy the bits of rhetoric that resonate best with their voters in focus groups.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:08 pm

Grumble wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:00 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:57 pm

And being true to their principles. Compare and contrast: Sturgeon calling a fascist and a racist a fascist and a racist (admittedly someone standing against her in her constituency who had deliberately accosted her rather than a 'woman on the street') vs Gordon Brown mumbling about a bigoted woman in the back of his car, and 'control immigration' mugs.

Also the GND is sort of what I was alluding to in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2425&start=50#p80805 so I agree. Obviously a complicated and enormous task, but also essential, really.

Sturgeon was talking to a rival though. Brown was talking to, then about, a (former) Labour voter.

As I acknowledged in my post...it was a different situation, but there's an issue with trying to appease people that you don't really like that labour don't seem to be that good at.

Yeah, I think that’s a good point. Most people haven’t got a problem showing dislike or even hate. People like that in a politician. A bit of genuine emotion.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:57 pm

Also the GND is sort of what I was alluding to in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2425&start=50#p80805 so I agree. Obviously a complicated and enormous task, but also essential, really.

It being so big and complicated works to its advantage. You use it to hang all of your policies off of and give your campaigns the focus of clear goal that you're aiming for. Labour lacked this in 2019 - they tried to distract from Brexit with too much stuff which ended up being all over the place (even if individually they were popular), and currently lack now by having nothing.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 11:02 am

I'm pretty f.cking depressed at the whole thing to be honest. I can't help but feel that for a lot of younger people, they'd rather complain on facebook or twitter than actually go out and vote. Maybe I'm mistaken or being unfair. The boomers, having secured such a high proportion of national wealth, are voting pretty heavily to keep hold of it and f.ck everyone else.

The majority of boomers are deluded if they think they'll keep their wealth. As things stand it'll get used up if they need long term care. How long before the government decides cancer treatment is too expensive and makes patients fork out?

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:57 pm

Also the GND is sort of what I was alluding to in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2425&start=50#p80805 so I agree. Obviously a complicated and enormous task, but also essential, really.

It being so big and complicated works to its advantage. You use it to hang all of your policies off of and give your campaigns the focus of clear goal that you're aiming for. Labour lacked this in 2019 - they tried to distract from Brexit with too much stuff which ended up being all over the place (even if individually they were popular), and currently lack now by having nothing.

Yep that's another way of looking at it I suppose!

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:06 pm

Plus somehow paying for all the ancient decrepit boomers' lavish retirement lifestyles out of our sh.t wages, while still paying them rent for all the houses they've snaffled.

My pension is £1,000 pcm and it's paid for from the superannuation scheme (which I paid into) not the taxpayer. Since my mortgage is paid off I can live on that but it's hardly "lavish". And like the majority I own but one home, the one I f.cking live in. But hey, don't let facts spoil your simplistic rant.

JQH wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:47 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:06 pm

Plus somehow paying for all the ancient decrepit boomers' lavish retirement lifestyles out of our sh.t wages, while still paying them rent for all the houses they've snaffled.

My pension is £1,000 pcm and it's paid for from the superannuation scheme (which I paid into) not the taxpayer. Since my mortgage is paid off I can live on that but it's hardly "lavish". And like the majority I own but one home, the one I f.cking live in. But hey, don't let facts spoil your simplistic rant.

I apologise for exaggerating #notallboomers

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:46 pm

Pretty sure the fast food and gig workers are likely Labour voters too. It's not as simple as only those two groups.

Don't think this is true. Not outside London and London-esque cities. Minimum wage catering jobs and gig jobs are often held by older people with kids and mortgages.

There's no easy indicator of what's a Labour voter or Tory voter these days..

I was talking about people in the cities, cos I thought the others were

In other news, Welsh Labour seem to be doing alright, clicky

The Conservatives are doing worse in the South East compared to 2017.

For example Surrey down from 61 of 81 seats to 47 of 81. Follows on from them getting trounced in local councils in 2019.

Of course that's not Labour, it's wins for LibDems, residents groups/greenbelt nimbies, and Greens.

Likewise Cambridgeshire, where Conservatives lost control. Remain areas down south are getting out of the habit of voting for anything with a blue rosette.

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 9:32 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 7:46 pm

Pretty sure the fast food and gig workers are likely Labour voters too. It's not as simple as only those two groups.

Don't think this is true. Not outside London and London-esque cities. Minimum wage catering jobs and gig jobs are often held by older people with kids and mortgages.

There's no easy indicator of what's a Labour voter or Tory voter these days..

Without wanting to get overly exercised about "likely" vs "often", minimum wage and part-time work are both disproportionately performed by younger people (and women). See e.g. this report www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/199043/ ... 004803.pdf

England is about 83.7% urban, and isn't going to be getting a thriving rural economy back any time soon, so it's urban workers the Labour party should be focusing on.

The London/north split is important, though. No doubt the massively imbalanced economy is part of the problem.

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Thu May 06, 2021 9:19 pm

TL:DR: I don't think the position should exist. If it has to exist I don't think it should be an elected position. And if it has to be an elected position the bar to entry and the support given to candidates has to be signficantly increased so we can at least have a chance of an informed electorate.

Thanks Fishnut. I had forgotten what PCC stood for and was thinking it was some sort of local council. Makes more sense now.

Nice to see 50 more Green councillors already too, despite the general backdrop of sh.t in England.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 9:54 pm

England is about 83.7% urban, and isn't going to be getting a thriving rural economy back any time soon, so it's urban workers the Labour party should be focusing on.

Obviously urban doesn't mean cities. 56% of the population lives in towns of 5,000 to 225,000 people. Targeting London-esque urban is not the answer.

Hartlepool is urban, for example.

I bet a key metric is how people travel to work. Many of these towns aren't public transport kinds of places.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 8:11 pm

They should opt for the Tory approach of treating all members of the public with utter contempt

But seriously though, you're right about this. And about green new deals, which probably deserve their own thread. If Biden et al. can get some good stuff through, Labour can copy the bits of rhetoric that resonate best with their voters in focus groups.

I think there's a general problem with Leftists and Liberals in that we often seem to tell people that they're stupid, then expect them act smart in elections. But the Right tells people that they're smart, and expects them to act stupid at elections.

I mean, I'm doing it right now by insinuating that the British public is too thick to see through Tory b.llsh.t, while at the same time hoping they'll come to their senses at some point in the future. If I were a conservative I'd likely be very vocal about how the savvy British people have once again seen through the empty promises of far Left wronguns of Starmer's ilk, while chuckling away heartily to myself.

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri May 07, 2021 11:00 pm

I bet a key metric is how people travel to work. Many of these towns aren't public transport kinds of places.

From memory, in the beforetimes, rail made up around 15% of all journeys, and something like 80% of journeys were either from, to or through London. I haven't got any stats about buses though.

Interesting comment on Newsnight - people have voted for the controlling party - Tories in England, but SNP in Scotland and Labour in Wales. Not surprising when people feel threatened.

That's my hope and I'm sticking to it