I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

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Tessa K
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Tessa K » Mon May 10, 2021 2:23 pm

Grumble wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:18 pm
jimbob wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:22 pm
Grumble wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:13 pm


I don’t think you get to that level without being one. See also Steve Jobs and Bill Gates.
But there's being a c.nt and there's accusing someone of being a paedophile for saying that your so-called submarine (a rigid tube) would not be suitable for a cave rescue. And then saying it was just a general good-natured joke, whilst setting private investigators onto him.
Not defending the c.nt for a minute, nor the c.ntish actions of others, just observing. The casual defamation of calling someone a paedo is astonishing. For shouting at workers and summarily dismissing them plus other nasty practices though it seems to be part of the high level businessman persona.
There is often an element of the psychopath in highly successful business people. It's easier for him to come out as Aspie than as Psycho.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Stephanie » Mon May 10, 2021 2:42 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:37 pm
Stephanie wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:02 pm
personally, i just think he's a c.nt
Sure, OK. But how many c.nts have made self-landing rockets, or ushered in electric car use on a global scale?

There's loads of idiots on here claiming this would have probably happened by now anyway.
yeah, but in the words of shania twain, that don't impress me much.
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Gfamily » Mon May 10, 2021 3:32 pm

I think that Musk is personally significant in having the engineering nous to see that self landing rockets (to take just one example) could be achieved, and also that they could give a 90% reduction in the cost of access to space.
He also had the personal wealth to get the company and the rockets up and running on his own terms.
Clearly a risk taker, he's comfortable with pushing boundaries in business, in engineering and in social terms; and he has changed the world of space economics (albeit in partnership with US Govt / NASA).
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by lpm » Mon May 10, 2021 4:35 pm

"Musk is personally significant in having the engineering nous to see that self landing rockets (to take just one example) could be achieved" is a perfect example of how narratives get embedded in history.

Humans need human protagonists to be the drivers of stories, whether fiction or non fiction. We aren't as good at understanding stuff that's in abstract non-human terms.

The reality of course is that self landing rockets are the outcome of technology changes. The $ per kg to orbit is determined by all those millions of people beavering away uncredited in the background, producing the technological environment around us. It's self evidently crazy to think one individual can change the kg to orbit cost.
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by dyqik » Mon May 10, 2021 4:39 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:59 pm
Lol.

He took a tiny hobbyist car firm and has launched a new and globally recognised manufacturer - the first one to break through in, what? 40 years? More?

And it's setting the pace to the extent that the entire industry (with legislation following rapidly behind) is desperately playing catch up. Without Musk we'd still have a few weirdos driving Nissan Leafs and the Prius. We wouldn't have petrolheads wanging about in the Model S. As for rockets that land themselves...

I really find the psychology at play here fascinating. What is it? Envy? Wounded pride? Some sort of fairytale that hasn't worked out the way you want it to? Are you used to being top dogs? Is that it?
You're just looking to insult people based on your b.llsh.t take now. Please stop being a c.nt.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by dyqik » Mon May 10, 2021 4:42 pm

Grumble wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:18 pm
jimbob wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:22 pm
Grumble wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:13 pm


I don’t think you get to that level without being one. See also Steve Jobs and Bill Gates.
But there's being a c.nt and there's accusing someone of being a paedophile for saying that your so-called submarine (a rigid tube) would not be suitable for a cave rescue. And then saying it was just a general good-natured joke, whilst setting private investigators onto him.
Not defending the c.nt for a minute, nor the c.ntish actions of others, just observing. The casual defamation of calling someone a paedo is astonishing. For shouting at workers and summarily dismissing them plus other nasty practices though it seems to be part of the high level businessman persona.
It's not a real serious succesful businessman persona, of course. It's a mythical stereotype of the businesscunt, much like Trump's image.

Of course, if you have a lot of inherited capital, you can be successful by playing at businesscunt even while that's not the optimal strategy.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Gfamily » Mon May 10, 2021 4:50 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:35 pm
"Musk is personally significant in having the engineering nous to see that self landing rockets (to take just one example) could be achieved" is a perfect example of how narratives get embedded in history.

Humans need human protagonists to be the drivers of stories, whether fiction or non fiction. We aren't as good at understanding stuff that's in abstract non-human terms.

The reality of course is that self landing rockets are the outcome of technology changes. The $ per kg to orbit is determined by all those millions of people beavering away uncredited in the background, producing the technological environment around us. It's self evidently crazy to think one individual can change the kg to orbit cost.
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My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Grumble » Mon May 10, 2021 5:17 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:42 pm
Grumble wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:18 pm
jimbob wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:22 pm


But there's being a c.nt and there's accusing someone of being a paedophile for saying that your so-called submarine (a rigid tube) would not be suitable for a cave rescue. And then saying it was just a general good-natured joke, whilst setting private investigators onto him.
Not defending the c.nt for a minute, nor the c.ntish actions of others, just observing. The casual defamation of calling someone a paedo is astonishing. For shouting at workers and summarily dismissing them plus other nasty practices though it seems to be part of the high level businessman persona.
It's not a real serious succesful businessman persona, of course. It's a mythical stereotype of the businesscunt, much like Trump's image.

Of course, if you have a lot of inherited capital, you can be successful by playing at businesscunt even while that's not the optimal strategy.
It might be a stereotype but I’m not sure it’s mythical. Just look at exhibit 1.
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Fishnut » Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:32 pm
I think that Musk is personally significant in having the engineering nous to see that self landing rockets (to take just one example) could be achieved, and also that they could give a 90% reduction in the cost of access to space.
He also had the personal wealth to get the company and the rockets up and running on his own terms.
Clearly a risk taker, he's comfortable with pushing boundaries in business, in engineering and in social terms; and he has changed the world of space economics (albeit in partnership with US Govt / NASA).
I suspect those billions of government subsides helped.
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by bolo » Mon May 10, 2021 5:24 pm

Before SpaceX, the launch business was ticking along comfortably, with little competition, huge barriers to entry, and nice juicy prices largely from government customers. The price per kg to orbit wasn't changing much because not many people were beavering away to change it, because why bother?

Musk's main contribution wasn't brilliant engineering. It was his huge checkbook and his determination to get into the business and shake it up. And the determination was as much because of his ego and his personal fantasies as because he saw a clear business opportunity.

So yes, there was a technological opportunity that anyone could have taken on, but it wasn't happening, and it wasn't likely to happen any time soon absent some rich individual with a vision. You can argue that if it hadn't been Musk, it would have been Bezos a decade later, or some other person whose name we don't know, 25 years from now. But if the question is why it happened when it actually did happen, the answer is Musk.

Which doesn't, of course, excuse him for being an a..hole.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by lpm » Mon May 10, 2021 5:58 pm

But that doesn't tell us anything about whether he made kg to orbit cheaper or more expensive. The counterfactual could well be a better rocket development here and how in 2021, let alone in 2025.

For example, mad billionaire blows $2 billion on failure before getting it right. Without him, a couple of years later a saner billionaire could have wasted only $1 billion on failure before getting it right. Tesla could have held back electric cars - by being very expensive with low build quality but very early. A faster rollout could have happened a bit later with cheaper cars with better quality. Who knows?

All we can say is the view from 2050 will be pretty much identical. The number and quality of electric cars on the roads will have been driven by the fundamental costs. The cost to get a kg into orbit will be the outcome of basic technology. It's all very exciting in the here and now, with glamour and personalities and fantasies about Mars - but what we're probably seeing is a lot of wasting of resources by going for mad schemes too early, offset by a lot of saving of resources by shaking up the status quo in dynamic ways. Generally subsidising stuff - either as a billionaire or a govt - leads to distortions with unknown positives and negatives.

Another way to look at it is to consider solar panels. There hasn't been a egotistical billionaire with wild fantasies about covering the world in solar panels. Nor has there been a famous personality charging in and shaking it up. But the cost of watts per panel has plummeted by astonishing amounts. The huge barriers to entry and the govt obstructions established by the fossil fuel giants haven't been able to withstand the fundamental economics and technology. The millions of people beavering away have got it done. Maybe a billionaire could have gone too early, subsidising the building out of ineffecient panels that crushed competition from unsubsidised better panels later on. Or it could have crushed unsubsidised offshore wind. Who knows? It doesn't really matter - all the counterfactuals converge on the same destination when we take a 30 year view.
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by plodder » Mon May 10, 2021 6:21 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:58 pm
But that doesn't tell us anything about whether he made kg to orbit cheaper or more expensive. The counterfactual could well be a better rocket development here and how in 2021, let alone in 2025.

For example, mad billionaire blows $2 billion on failure before getting it right. Without him, a couple of years later a saner billionaire could have wasted only $1 billion on failure before getting it right. Tesla could have held back electric cars - by being very expensive with low build quality but very early. A faster rollout could have happened a bit later with cheaper cars with better quality. Who knows?

All we can say is the view from 2050 will be pretty much identical. The number and quality of electric cars on the roads will have been driven by the fundamental costs. The cost to get a kg into orbit will be the outcome of basic technology. It's all very exciting in the here and now, with glamour and personalities and fantasies about Mars - but what we're probably seeing is a lot of wasting of resources by going for mad schemes too early, offset by a lot of saving of resources by shaking up the status quo in dynamic ways. Generally subsidising stuff - either as a billionaire or a govt - leads to distortions with unknown positives and negatives.

Another way to look at it is to consider solar panels. There hasn't been a egotistical billionaire with wild fantasies about covering the world in solar panels. Nor has there been a famous personality charging in and shaking it up. But the cost of watts per panel has plummeted by astonishing amounts. The huge barriers to entry and the govt obstructions established by the fossil fuel giants haven't been able to withstand the fundamental economics and technology. The millions of people beavering away have got it done. Maybe a billionaire could have gone too early, subsidising the building out of ineffecient panels that crushed competition from unsubsidised better panels later on. Or it could have crushed unsubsidised offshore wind. Who knows? It doesn't really matter - all the counterfactuals converge on the same destination when we take a 30 year view.
lol wut

have you literally just heard of the guy?

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by plodder » Mon May 10, 2021 6:27 pm

btw the huge decrease in cost of offshore wind is because a handful of firms invested huge sums of money in specialist ships that build offshore wind turbines. Not entirely sure how risky this was (i.e. was a government willing to subsidise the installation or price per kW/h or whatever) but it only happened because some very hard working, very far-sighted, very clever people made some decisions to do things differently.

The idea that people are led into making these decisions by technology and invisible forces that kind of invent themselves in some sort of primordial capitalist soup is, I'm sure, very appealing in a sort of squint-and-you-can-see-the-shapes sort of way, but it's horseshit.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by plodder » Mon May 10, 2021 6:28 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:39 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:59 pm
Lol.

He took a tiny hobbyist car firm and has launched a new and globally recognised manufacturer - the first one to break through in, what? 40 years? More?

And it's setting the pace to the extent that the entire industry (with legislation following rapidly behind) is desperately playing catch up. Without Musk we'd still have a few weirdos driving Nissan Leafs and the Prius. We wouldn't have petrolheads wanging about in the Model S. As for rockets that land themselves...

I really find the psychology at play here fascinating. What is it? Envy? Wounded pride? Some sort of fairytale that hasn't worked out the way you want it to? Are you used to being top dogs? Is that it?
You're just looking to insult people based on your b.llsh.t take now. Please stop being a c.nt.
Jeez, touchy. I am genuinely interested in why some people struggle to see beyond his gruesome ego to the extent that they'll claim anyone could have done it.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by lpm » Mon May 10, 2021 6:31 pm

I know less about his space stuff that his solar ventures which I've studied in a lot of detail. And it's a massive clusterf.ck - particularly with regard to the manipulation of govt subsidies. I take it you've heard of SolarCity?

Solar is pretty conclusive proof that driving global changes through the whims and incompetence of a mad billionaire leads to a worse outcome than more natural investment and development by a range of more normal corporations. Likewise the development of offshore wind has come on very nicely via the efforts of boring energy companies, Vestas, research at universities etc etc.
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by plodder » Mon May 10, 2021 6:49 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 6:31 pm
I know less about his space stuff that his solar ventures which I've studied in a lot of detail. And it's a massive clusterf.ck - particularly with regard to the manipulation of govt subsidies. I take it you've heard of SolarCity?

Solar is pretty conclusive proof that driving global changes through the whims and incompetence of a mad billionaire leads to a worse outcome than more natural investment and development by a range of more normal corporations. Likewise the development of offshore wind has come on very nicely via the efforts of boring energy companies, Vestas, research at universities etc etc.
I'll agree re solar. He only helped maintain momentum that others were already generating.

But this video is literally only possible because Tesla made electric cars cool. And this video shows that we're reaching the tipping point for electric vehicles way more quickly than anyone would have imagined only a few years ago.

https://twitter.com/jimfarley98/status/ ... 7410825221

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Pishwish » Mon May 10, 2021 6:52 pm

There's plenty of reasons to dislike Musk. For me, the slur on the diver and the credible accounts of poor work and management practices at Tesla convinced me that he was in the Steve Jobs mould of business leader. More recently, his attitude to covid and his support for cryptocurrencies have undermined his scientific and environmental credibility.
But once people decide to dislike someone, there is a tendency to accept all sorts of spurious criticisms that somehow do not apply to other business leaders. Musk is a businessman who doesn't like unions and runs a for-profit company? Say it isn't so!
When SpaceX started, people in the industry said Musk was an idiot who didn't know what he was doing. When Falcon 9 launched, Musk's plans for reusability were mocked. As Falcon 9 launched more often, critics said its success was all down to NASA's (relatively tiny) subsidies. As this line of argument fell apart it was then all the talented employees that were responsible for Falcon 9's success, not chief designer Elon Musk. With successful booster landings, the critics declared that reusing rockets wasn't really a big deal after all.
I am less familiar with Tesla, and many of the arguments seem identical. All down to subsidies. Electric cars were going to happen anyway. This is 100 year old tech! Yeah, he wasn't really that integral to Tesla's success. A tesla went on fire somewhere! Electric cars are bad for the environment and for the developing world.
The root of much of this antipathy is political. For environmentalists, global warming should be solved by changes in behaviour and self-denial, not by techno-fixes. For the right, electric car subsidies are a scam to hand taxpayer money to liberal silicon valley types. To public servants and military contractors, government organisations like NASA are supposed to lead space exploration and not silicon valley upstarts. For critics of capitalism, hard-working immigrants cannot create giant companies without established wealth and connections.
Again, Musk says and does many stupid things and I have no doubt will continue to do so. But bad arguments are bad arguments.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by dyqik » Mon May 10, 2021 7:13 pm

Yes. The bad argument that Musk made a difference that no one else could is a bad argument. As is the argument that he made no difference.

You didn't run the counterfactual experiment. The business and technology environment changes all the time, so the fact that no one did it a few years before him is not evidence that no one could or could not have done it a few years after him.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon May 10, 2021 7:23 pm

Pishwish wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 6:52 pm
For environmentalists, global warming should be solved by changes in behaviour and self-denial, not by techno-fixes.
Purely on this - plenty of environmentalists are more than happy to welcome techno-fixes (as long as they actually address the issue). I know quite a few with electric cars.


The rollout of electric cars is going to be accelerated by government action. Some forward-thinking places are already phasing out new ICEs in the next decade or so (eg New Zealand). Carbon taxes will be getting increasingly punitive as we run out of carbon budget. There's a shitload of new infrastructure needed too, which will almost certainly mean public management (if the infrastructure for stuff like electricity, trains and water is anything to go by).

Once governments pull their fingers out of their collective arses and actually get on with things the progress we've seen so far is going to look like dawdling.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon May 10, 2021 7:30 pm

And with regards to the title/OP, Musk didn't actually say he's not a c.nt, nor try to use his Aspergers as an excuse, AFAICT from the linked article.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Pishwish » Mon May 10, 2021 7:36 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:35 pm
"Musk is personally significant in having the engineering nous to see that self landing rockets (to take just one example) could be achieved" is a perfect example of how narratives get embedded in history.

Humans need human protagonists to be the drivers of stories, whether fiction or non fiction. We aren't as good at understanding stuff that's in abstract non-human terms.

The reality of course is that self landing rockets are the outcome of technology changes. The $ per kg to orbit is determined by all those millions of people beavering away uncredited in the background, producing the technological environment around us. It's self evidently crazy to think one individual can change the kg to orbit cost.
The individual is not important!
article on Korolev wrote:When Sweden's Nobel Committee decided to award their prize to the Chief Designer, and asked to know his name, Premier Khrushchev told them the entire Soviet people deserved the award.
And regarding solar power, it is an entirely different animal to rocketry, it would be like comparing the semiconductor industry to Formula one.
dyqik wrote: so the fact that no one did it a few years before him is not evidence that no one could or could not have done it a few years after him.
Yup, nobody ever tried.
bolo wrote: So yes, there was a technological opportunity that anyone could have taken on, but it wasn't happening, and it wasn't likely to happen any time soon absent some rich individual with a vision. You can argue that if it hadn't been Musk, it would have been Bezos a decade later, or some other person whose name we don't know, 25 years from now. But if the question is why it happened when it actually did happen, the answer is Musk.
Ironically Bezos did start earlier than Musk with Blue Origin, his suborbital rocket may begin commercial operation before Branson's (over 10 years late) and it looks like his orbital rocket may launch next year. Those unfamiliar with the space industry may not know its history of failed projects (not just NASA's) and startups. Sadly, there will be many more as the excess money sloshing around the world has funded dozens of space launch startups chasing a market that can only support a handful of players.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by dyqik » Mon May 10, 2021 7:38 pm

Pishwish wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:36 pm
dyqik wrote: so the fact that no one did it a few years before him is not evidence that no one could or could not have done it a few years after him.
Yup, nobody ever tried.
None of those happened in the same environment, so no, no one tried at the same time or a little later than Musk, in an environment with no Musk. Your argument remains an incomplete and flawed argument.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon May 10, 2021 7:45 pm

.
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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by Pishwish » Mon May 10, 2021 7:54 pm

Kistler Aerospace (or Rocketplane Kistler) literally won the same NASA COTS competition that SpaceX did in 2006. And if you read the rest of my post, you would have noticed that Jeff Bezos, a man not notably short of cash, started his space company before SpaceX and has yet to send anything into orbit.

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Re: I'm not a high functioning selfish c.nt - I have a diagnosis.

Post by bjn » Mon May 10, 2021 7:59 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:13 pm
Yes. The bad argument that Musk made a difference that no one else could is a bad argument. As is the argument that he made no difference.

You didn't run the counterfactual experiment. The business and technology environment changes all the time, so the fact that no one did it a few years before him is not evidence that no one could or could not have done it a few years after him.
Musk’s companies were not the only ones making electric cars or rockets, nor was his the first companies to do so. So no need for counterfactuals, look at his competitors.

Subsidies for electric cars were/are available to all companies making electric cars, so it was a level playing field. Tesla pissed all over the competition because they made subjectivity and objectively better cars, as well as supporting services, like a charging network. All other offerings were anaemic and are now playing catch-up. Musk had a significant role in creating the business plans to get that all done. We can be Marxist about it and say that eventually the sweep of technological history would have created vehicles like Telsas, but without Tesla and Musk driving the team there, it would have been years/decades before the established companies would have been arsed to do it. It took an outsider. Though he is almost certainly getting in the way now.

If you want bloated developers of rockets sucking at the government cash teat, look no further than The United Launch Alliance and the Space Launch System, it’s many years late, with billions and billions spent and still no working rocket. Let alone a reusable one that is actually launching astronauts into space right now. Again, it took an outsider to shake it all up. Why try too hard when you have a lovely costs plus contract to keep your CEO’s private jet fund topped up?

The Boring Company was admittedly stupid, as is Hyperloop.

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