Israel and Palestine

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Trinucleus
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Trinucleus » Tue May 18, 2021 4:14 pm

noggins wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:13 pm
Can anyone explain to me how/why the loony small parties have such power in israeli politics?
It's intersting that there have been parties in Government which don't recognise the Palestinians right to land, because the bible say it all belongs to the Jews. Yet apparently you can't talk to anyone who denys Israel's right to exist?

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 18, 2021 8:08 pm

bolo wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 2:36 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:11 am
He's also talking to Israel but not Palestine.
Not necessarily disagreeing with your general points, but FWIW, Biden spoke with Abbas by phone on Saturday:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... oud-abbas/
That's good to see. Thanks.
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Fishnut » Fri May 21, 2021 8:18 pm

Verso Books have made the book Ten Myths about Israel by Ilan Pappe free to download.
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by sTeamTraen » Fri May 21, 2021 8:24 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:48 pm
The majority of Israeli Jews are secular/non-observant, etc. The rest display a bewildering variety of denominations, for such a small religion. Although the ultra-orthodox are quite a small proportion, they tend to have 19th century quantities of children. So their proportion has increased, and the religious vote along with it. Also the Arab Israels have managed to get the vote out and play the system to increase their vote share. So the arithmetic has tended to work against the more moderate parties. To date no one has done a deal with the Arab parties, though the left were flirting with it recently.
Something that surprised me was the discovery that one or two of the ultra-ultra-ultra orthodox, "Don't walk on the cracks in the pavement on a Saturday" parties are not nearly as right-wing and anti-Palestinian/Muslim as I would have expected from my rather naive interpretation of fundamentalism.
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by dyqik » Fri May 21, 2021 10:44 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 8:24 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:48 pm
The majority of Israeli Jews are secular/non-observant, etc. The rest display a bewildering variety of denominations, for such a small religion. Although the ultra-orthodox are quite a small proportion, they tend to have 19th century quantities of children. So their proportion has increased, and the religious vote along with it. Also the Arab Israels have managed to get the vote out and play the system to increase their vote share. So the arithmetic has tended to work against the more moderate parties. To date no one has done a deal with the Arab parties, though the left were flirting with it recently.
Something that surprised me was the discovery that one or two of the ultra-ultra-ultra orthodox, "Don't walk on the cracks in the pavement on a Saturday" parties are not nearly as right-wing and anti-Palestinian/Muslim as I would have expected from my rather naive interpretation of fundamentalism.
I suspect they don't find their identity threatened by Muslims in particular, so much as by more slightly liberal observant Jews. When you start from that far in one direction, everyone looks far away.

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by monkey » Fri May 21, 2021 11:22 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 8:24 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:48 pm
The majority of Israeli Jews are secular/non-observant, etc. The rest display a bewildering variety of denominations, for such a small religion. Although the ultra-orthodox are quite a small proportion, they tend to have 19th century quantities of children. So their proportion has increased, and the religious vote along with it. Also the Arab Israels have managed to get the vote out and play the system to increase their vote share. So the arithmetic has tended to work against the more moderate parties. To date no one has done a deal with the Arab parties, though the left were flirting with it recently.
Something that surprised me was the discovery that one or two of the ultra-ultra-ultra orthodox, "Don't walk on the cracks in the pavement on a Saturday" parties are not nearly as right-wing and anti-Palestinian/Muslim as I would have expected from my rather naive interpretation of fundamentalism.
Many of the Orthodox sects are Antizionist. Well, Anti-Secular-Zionist anyway, and to varying degrees. They think that only the Messiah can bring about the state of Israel, so are against it. Some are so against it that they do not recognise it as a state, despite living there (but also unlikely to join a political party). They have followers/members outside of Israel too, including the UK and USA, but are very much in the minority.

I forget the name of the sect that the crank left wing always use as an example of "not all Jews are Zionists".

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by sTeamTraen » Sat May 22, 2021 2:22 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 10:44 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 8:24 pm
Something that surprised me was the discovery that one or two of the ultra-ultra-ultra orthodox, "Don't walk on the cracks in the pavement on a Saturday" parties are not nearly as right-wing and anti-Palestinian/Muslim as I would have expected from my rather naive interpretation of fundamentalism.
I suspect they don't find their identity threatened by Muslims in particular, so much as by more slightly liberal observant Jews. When you start from that far in one direction, everyone looks far away.
I remember reading about one group who wouldn't fly with El Al because they allowed men and women to sit in the same row, even with an aisle between them. Some of the orthodox people make the Taliban look like the "J C Flannel" end of the Church of England.
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Martin_B » Mon May 24, 2021 7:25 am

Trinucleus wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 4:14 pm
noggins wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:13 pm
Can anyone explain to me how/why the loony small parties have such power in israeli politics?
It's intersting that there have been parties in Government which don't recognise the Palestinians right to land, because the bible say it all belongs to the Jews. Yet apparently you can't talk to anyone who denys Israel's right to exist?
Probably because the Tanakh says it, rather than the Bible ;)
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 25, 2021 11:54 am

Well, after blocking everyone else's attempts to pressure Israel, the US has at least announced it's going to help rebuild in Gaza:
Mr Blinken said intense, behind-the-scenes diplomacy by US President Joe Biden had helped produce last week's ceasefire, and that "now we believe we must build on it".

He added: "We know that to prevent a return to violence we have to use the space created to address a larger set of underlying issues and challenges. And that begins with tackling the grave humanitarian situation in Gaza and starting to rebuild."

He said the US would rally international support around that effort while also making its own "significant contributions", including some that would be announced later on Tuesday.

Israel being oh-so-generous:
Israeli authorities said earlier that they were allowing fuel, medicine and food for Gaza's private sector to enter the territory for the first time since the fighting ended.
c.nts.

The UN said on Sunday that 242 Palestinians, including 66 children and 38 women, were killed in the conflict, and that its human right's office had verified that at least 129 of them were civilians.
Of course, Israel reckons they killed "over 200 militants".
The UN cited the Palestinian housing ministry as saying 258 buildings, comprising 1,042 housing and commercial units, were destroyed during the fighting. In addition, 769 housing units were severely damaged and 14,536 suffered minor damage.
Fifty-four education facilities, six hospitals and 11 primary healthcare facilities were also damaged, as was water, sanitation, and electric infrastructure, according to the UN.
Of course, Israel reckons those were militant hospitals, militant schools and militant water facilities :roll:
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 27, 2021 9:00 pm

The UN Human Rights Council has voted to investigate violence in the recent conflict between Israel and Hamas.
The text of the resolution, brought by the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) and the Palestinian delegation, calls for a permanent Commission of Inquiry to be set up to report on rights violations in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.

It also calls for the investigation of "all underlying root causes of recurrent tensions, instability and protraction of conflict".

Opening the council session, UN human rights chief Michele Bachelet said she was concerned about the high level of casualties in Gaza and warned that Israeli strikes might constitute war crimes.

She also described Hamas rocket fire at Israel as indiscriminate and a "clear violation" of international humanitarian law.

Nine members, including several Western countries, voted against the resolution and another 14 abstained. China and Russia were among those voting in favour.
The US is criticising the idea, of course. Apparently accountability will be bad for the peace process.
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Little waster » Thu May 27, 2021 9:35 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:00 pm

Nine members, including several Western countries, voted against the resolution and another 14 abstained. China and Russia were among those voting in favour.

Any guesses which way the UK voted?

Any theories about why the BBC may have thought that unworthy of mentioning or even worth mentioning we even had a vote in the first place?

I mean who wants to get bogged down in mere trivial details like that?

I think regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the vote the BBC has a clear duty to at least inform us which way our government responded or that our government even responded at all, its failure to do so seems a clear and conscious omission. :|
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by bolo » Thu May 27, 2021 9:57 pm

Has anyone found a list of which countries voted which way? From that article, 24 voted yes, including Russia and China; 9 voted no, including the UK, Austria, and Germany; and 14 abstained (the wimps), including France and the Netherlands. The US made a bunch of noise but is not a member.

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Woodchopper » Thu May 27, 2021 10:12 pm

Little waster wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:35 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:00 pm

Nine members, including several Western countries, voted against the resolution and another 14 abstained. China and Russia were among those voting in favour.

Any guesses which way the UK voted?

Any theories about why the BBC may have thought that unworthy of mentioning or even worth mentioning we even had a vote in the first place?

I mean who wants to get bogged down in mere trivial details like that?

I think regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the vote the BBC has a clear duty to at least inform us which way our government responded or that our government even responded at all, its failure to do so seems a clear and conscious omission. :|
Some information on the vote may be posted here: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/S ... ssion.aspx

Important to note though that the Human Rights Council has many members which are governments which violate human rights. https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/P ... Group.aspx

It isn’t a credible body to conduct an investigation.

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by bolo » Thu May 27, 2021 10:23 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 10:12 pm
Some information on the vote may be posted here: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/S ... ssion.aspx
I looked there, but no luck finding the actual vote. Later maybe.
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 10:12 pm
Important to note though that the Human Rights Council has many members which are governments which violate human rights. https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/P ... Group.aspx

It isn’t a credible body to conduct an investigation.
Regrettable, but true.

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Little waster » Thu May 27, 2021 10:28 pm

bolo wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:57 pm
Has anyone found a list of which countries voted which way? From that article, 24 voted yes, including Russia and China; 9 voted no, including the UK, Austria, and Germany; and 14 abstained (the wimps), including France and the Netherlands. The US made a bunch of noise but is not a member.
I found a full list on the french site

https://www.ungeneva.org/fr/news-media/ ... commission
In favour (24): Argentina, Armenia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, China, Cote d’Ivoire, Cuba, Eritrea, Gabon, Indonesia, Libya, Mauritania, Mexico, Namibia, Pakistan, Philippines, Russian Federation, Senegal, Somalia, Sudan, Uzbekistan and Venezuela.

Against (14): Bahamas, Brazil, Denmark, Fiji, France, India, Italy, Japan, Nepal, Netherlands, Poland, Republic of Korea, Togo and Ukraine.

Abstentions (9): Austria, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Czech Republic, Germany, Malawi, Marshall Islands, United Kingdom and Uruguay.
Interestingly it contradicts the Reuters version with votes against and votes abstaining being flipped :?

ETA: The BBC appear to have went with the Reuters version.
The body approved the resolution, brought by a group of Islamic countries, by 24 votes to nine.
Go figure.
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by dyqik » Sun May 30, 2021 8:21 pm

It's looking like Netanyahu is out soon, ousted by a rainbow coalition government.

Israeli opposition parties reach agreement to oust Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
By Shira Rubin

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mi ... story.html

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun May 30, 2021 10:27 pm

I'm not sure it's really a rainbow coalition. There's no progressive or Palestinian parties in the government, just a February shacking up with the far right (and giving them the reigns in the first two years).

It's hard to be optimistic about progress if the PM is a far-right settler himself.
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by IvanV » Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:06 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 10:27 pm
I'm not sure it's really a rainbow coalition. There's no progressive or Palestinian parties in the government, just a February shacking up with the far right (and giving them the reigns in the first two years).

It's hard to be optimistic about progress if the PM is a far-right settler himself.
What's a "February"?

The centrist and secular Yesh Atid party led by Yair Lapid, which is the largest party in this potential coalition, does not seem to have a progressive view on peace. The first 7 of its 8 main policies listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesh_Atid#Platform, are domestic issues. The last one, and thus presumably of least importance, is:

"Striving for peace according to an outline of "two states for two peoples", while maintaining the large Israeli settlement blocs and ensuring the safety of Israel." A subsidiary policy is "Renewing peace negotiations with the Palestinians and halting construction in Israeli settlements"

This sounds like the less strident position the Israeli goverment had before Ariel Sharon. But ultimately amounts to sit on what they've got, give nothing away, while paying lip-service to a two-state solution, but keep the provocations down. And, as you correctly note, they are talking about letting Naftali Bennett have first turn at being PM. His New Right party is opposed both to a Palestinian state and to inclusiveness within one state.

I suspect their main priority is getting Netanyahu in court and out of contention, and then they'll have another election.

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:35 am

Ooops. Yeah "February" was an auto-corrupt for "centrist".

It's like if the Lib Dems teamed up with the BNP to get Johnson out of office. If they all agreed on continuing a genocide.

Why do you think they'd go for another election, out of interest?
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by noggins » Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:33 pm

There would be another election because they hate each other. But for now both think they can gain from taking down Bibi (and his network)

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by bolo » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:35 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:35 am
"February" was an auto-corrupt for "centrist".
This is a world champion autocorrupt.

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:51 pm

bolo wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:35 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:35 am
"February" was an auto-corrupt for "centrist".
This is a world champion autocorrupt.
Interestingly I can replicate it. Possibly of relevance is that I swipe rather than type. I should probably still proofread though ;)
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by shpalman » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:25 am

UK education row as Israel-Palestine textbooks pulled
... the only exam board to offer curriculum material and a GCSE history option on the region has withdrawn its two textbooks after being accused of favouring the case for Israel.
It is the second time that the history books... have been taken off the shelves. The first time – in October 2019 – was because Jewish organisations claimed the books favoured Palestine.
molto tricky

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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by Aitch » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:36 am

shpalman wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:25 am
UK education row as Israel-Palestine textbooks pulled
... the only exam board to offer curriculum material and a GCSE history option on the region has withdrawn its two textbooks after being accused of favouring the case for Israel.
It is the second time that the history books... have been taken off the shelves. The first time – in October 2019 – was because Jewish organisations claimed the books favoured Palestine.
Wouldn't the obvious thing to do be to put both books back on the shelves, and let the teachers/pupils develop a balanced(?) view that way?

Or am I being naive? :oops:
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Re: Israel and Palestine

Post by shpalman » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:14 am

I'd say to write a book which pisses both sides off equally.

And to include the fact that they're pissed off in the book.
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