Moderate alcohol consumption

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dyqik
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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by dyqik » Wed May 19, 2021 2:18 pm

shpalman wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:21 pm
I suppose it would mean that if you plotted harm versus quantity the line would go through the origin. Previously it's been argued that small amounts were even beneficial.

Of course one unit, once in your life will have a tiny effect which in practice won't be measurable. The line isn't a step function either.
And there's absolutely no evidence from this data of the direction of that effect.

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Tessa K
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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by Tessa K » Wed May 19, 2021 2:57 pm

I've lived in central London for the last 40 years. The pollution I've breathed in has probably done my brain (and other bits of me) more harm than a few classes of vino collapso a week would have done.

Allo V Psycho
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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by Allo V Psycho » Wed May 19, 2021 3:23 pm

shpalman wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:21 pm

Previously it's been argued that small amounts were even beneficial.
I think a very early report of benefits at the lower level is this
Marmot, M.G., Shipley, M.J., Rose, G. and Thomas, B., 1981. Alcohol and mortality: a U-shaped curve. The lancet, 317(8220), pp.580-583.
But people have spent the last 40 years discussing that
Goel, S., Sharma, A. and Garg, A., 2018. Effect of alcohol consumption on cardiovascular health. Current cardiology reports, 20(4), pp.1-10.

Costanzo, S., de Gaetano, G., Di Castelnuovo, A., Djoussé, L., Poli, A. and van Velden, D.P., 2019. Moderate alcohol consumption and lower total
mortality risk: Justified doubts or established facts?. Nutrition, Metabolism and Cardiovascular Diseases, 29(10), pp.1003-1008.

Minzer, S., Losno, R.A. and Casas, R., 2020. The Effect of Alcohol on Cardiovascular Risk Factors: Is There New Information?. Nutrients, 12(4), p.912.
Haven't looked at the paper under discussion yet.

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Stephanie
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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by Stephanie » Wed May 19, 2021 5:35 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 9:54 am
I've never understood why people regularly want to make themselves more stupid via alcohol. People seem plenty stupid enough to begin with.

It's nice to go on holiday a couple of times during the year. People don't expect to go on holiday every day. There's a handful of special days when we do fun things, like birthdays and Christmas, but most days are ordinary days.

Yet people seem to think alcohol is an every day of the year kind of thing. Have it just because they like it. Yet the same applies to birthday cake and Christmas presents.

I think the last time I had alcohol was to celebrate the confirmation that Trump had lost in November. Maybe I had some at Christmas, can't remember. I'll go on holiday in a couple of months and will probably have some then. Perhaps at some birthday party.

I'm the normal one when it comes to these luxury events. The rest of you are abnormal.
In that case, I've drunk less alcohol than you, in that I don't think I've drunk any over the last year or so.
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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed May 19, 2021 8:40 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 2:17 pm
The unhappiest people I know are the wealthy "ladies who lunch" who are constantly trapped in a loop of demand-complaint-dissatisfaction-demand. They don't enjoy going out to lunch because a restaurant meal is never perfect. It's rarity that, for most of us, makes a restaurant meal good enough to be extremely enjoyable.
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Millennie Al
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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by Millennie Al » Thu May 20, 2021 1:22 am

The study being referred to, available at https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf does not support the conclusion being drawn. In outline, it compared self-reported alcohol consumption with brain images. This immediately makes it a low quality study as self-reporting can be hopelessly inaccurate. For example, the paper says that 3760 particpiants self-reported as "drinkers" but then gave their consumption as zero units per week.

As the paper says:
Neuroimaging was cross-sectional and therefore we cannot examine the impact
of alcohol on changes in brain measures over time.
so at best any finding is correlational and not causational. Furthermore, the claimed effect is a very small change in brain volume and this is referred to as "harm" even though it does not cite any references to show that the change has any observable effect on brain performance.

I don't understand from the paper how many different levels of alcohol consumption were compared to how many different brain volumes. The graphs are so smooth that I take them to be illustrating the conclusions rather than plotting the raw data (and I very much dislike that the graphics have such poor labelling (e.g. no units) and the descriptions are on a separate page).
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shpalman
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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by shpalman » Sat May 29, 2021 12:35 pm

molto tricky

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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by IvanV » Sun May 30, 2021 12:51 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 12:35 pm
Minimum alcohol pricing again.
A ridiculous policy. It has reduced consumption in Scotland, as surely it would. But at the same time it has increased profit for the alcohol industry, who aren't allowed to sell it cheaply however cheap it is to make. An assessment I saw recently of the Scottish policy suggested that the increased profits were of an order of 10 times the savings of the NHS from the likely health benefits.

It also has the ridiculous effect that it has no effect on people who only drink stuff more expensive than that anyway. A regressive policy that only affects the plebs, perfect for elitist governments.

Just tax it higher if you want people to sell it at a higher price. Then we all experience the effect of it, and it raises some money that can be usefully spent on other health initiatives. I know the cider-makers all shouted last time this was suggested. But minimum pricing has much the same effect on the price of cider. The only difference is that the cider-makers keep the extra income with minimum pricing. As one of the cheapest forms of alcohol per unit, they probably do very well out of it. I really don't think the profit of a tiny proportion of society ought to be major consideration in the choice of policy.

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shpalman
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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by shpalman » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:37 pm

molto tricky

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Re: Moderate alcohol consumption

Post by rockdoctor » Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:05 pm

toomuchalcohol.jpg
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