Moderate alcohol consumption

[shpalman]

Someone in Relaxation Station was asking about drinking and immunological effects, and so this post was shared. Given that the findings are quite interesting, I've moved it here for folk to discuss

There is no safe amount of alcohol consumption for the brain, with even “moderate” drinking adversely affecting nearly every part of it

[snoozeofreason]

"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."

[Grumble]

There is no safe amount of alcohol consumption for the brain, with even “moderate” drinking adversely affecting nearly every part of it

Wrong thread? Definitely interesting but can a friendly mod move it please?

[Stephanie]

There is no safe amount of alcohol consumption for the brain, with even “moderate” drinking adversely affecting nearly every part of it

Wrong thread? Definitely interesting but can a friendly mod move it please?

Done, although I don't think it was the wrong thread so much as shpalman responding to another post in the thread that mentioned alcohol

[lpm]

I've never understood why people regularly want to make themselves more stupid via alcohol. People seem plenty stupid enough to begin with.

It's nice to go on holiday a couple of times during the year. People don't expect to go on holiday every day. There's a handful of special days when we do fun things, like birthdays and Christmas, but most days are ordinary days.

Yet people seem to think alcohol is an every day of the year kind of thing. Have it just because they like it. Yet the same applies to birthday cake and Christmas presents.

I think the last time I had alcohol was to celebrate the confirmation that Trump had lost in November. Maybe I had some at Christmas, can't remember. I'll go on holiday in a couple of months and will probably have some then. Perhaps at some birthday party.

I'm the normal one when it comes to these luxury events. The rest of you are abnormal.

[Martin Y]

I'm like that with chocolate. Has anyone found which organ chocolate shrinks?

[Bird on a Fire]

I've never understood why people regularly want to make themselves more stupid via alcohol. People seem plenty stupid enough to begin with.

On the contrary, I'm excessively intelligent and creative. Nobody can keep up with my mind on full-throttle, so I have to give myself a handicap when I want to participate in Planet Stupid.

Being on holiday every day sounds awesome too.

[IvanV]

I've never understood why people regularly want to make themselves more stupid via alcohol. People seem plenty stupid enough to begin with.

Nor me. I never liked drinking so much I became stupid. But that doesn't mean I have to be abstemious.

I drink a glass or two of nice wine with my dinner most days because I really, really enjoy the taste of it, and the moderate relaxation a modest quantity of alcohol produces. Each bottle is carefully portioned out over several days. It's nowhere near getting stupid type of quantity.

I appreciate that there is research saying there is no safe quantity of alcohol. You can also live longer on a food-restricted diet. But I'd rather enjoy my time on the earth.

[shpalman]

There is no safe amount of alcohol consumption for the brain, with even “moderate” drinking adversely affecting nearly every part of it

Wrong thread? Definitely interesting but can a friendly mod move it please?

Done, although I don't think it was the wrong thread so much as shpalman responding to another post in the thread that mentioned alcohol

Thanks, and yes it merits its own thread, but also I could have posted e.g. in response to how we all have to drink 124 pints to save the sector which supplies people with that many pints to drink.

Last Saturday I had the first sitting-outside-a-"pub" drink since last summer.

[science_fox]

There is no safe amount of alcohol consumption for the brain, with even “moderate” drinking adversely affecting nearly every part of it

That's quite a controversial (and also not logically true - moderate unequal no safe amount) statement. One unit, once in your life will permanently adversely affect your brain?
I've no idea how you'd even begin to measure that compared to the huge changes the brain undergoes anyway.
1 unit 1/year ditto ?
1 unit 1/month ditto ?

Like radiation, "toxic chemicals" and most things there very much is a safe limit below which no detectable changes can be noticed. Although I wouldn't like to be the analyst trying to determine what the limit should be, which may vary by an order of magnitude? between people.

[Martin Y]

Yes, that's an interesting detail of what "no safe level" really means. It appears to be saying there's no detectable threshold at which the effect disappears (or reverses). Which ain't the same thing as no level below which no harm can be detected.

[shpalman]

I suppose it would mean that if you plotted harm versus quantity the line would go through the origin. Previously it's been argued that small amounts were even beneficial.

Of course one unit, once in your life will have a tiny effect which in practice won't be measurable. The line isn't a step function either.

[Tessa K]

I stopped drinking a very long time ago. Now I prefer my empty calories in the form of chocolate and biscuits. I'm not sure I understand the word 'moderate' though. Isn't that what Steph does here?

[Boustrophedon]

"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."

IQ Klaxon! Actually it was Lewis Carroll from Alice in Wonderland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_O ... 0again.%22

[Tessa K]

"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."

IQ Klaxon! Actually it was Lewis Carroll from Alice in Wonderland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_O ... 0again.%22

IQ klaxon? Is that because your IQ has been affected by immoderate drinking?

[bmforre]

I stopped drinking a very long time ago. Now I prefer my empty calories in the form of chocolate and biscuits.

You can risk getting wholesome wholegrain in some biscuits.

I'm not sure I understand the word 'moderate' though. Isn't that what Steph does here?

I thought that was what heavy water does in a Candu reactor?
See also: Automated translation.

[Bird on a Fire]

I suppose it would mean that if you plotted harm versus quantity the line would go through the origin. Previously it's been argued that small amounts were even beneficial.

I thought the previous argument was that small quantities have benefits in longevity. Is there any evidence that these effects on the brain kill you? Otherwise I don't see the contradiction.

[bmforre]

Ethanol Content of Various Foods and Soft Drinks ...

From Journal of Analytical Toxicology.

[Tessa K]

Ethanol Content of Various Foods and Soft Drinks ...

From Journal of Analytical Toxicology.

It says:

Your session has timed out. Please go back to the article page and click the PDF link again.

[El Pollo Diablo]

The study, which is still to be peer-reviewed

[Gfamily]

Ethanol Content of Various Foods and Soft Drinks ...

From Journal of Analytical Toxicology.

It says:

Your session has timed out. Please go back to the article page and click the PDF link again.

Looks like you can open the pdf from here

[monkey]

I'm pretty sure that getting old is worse for your brain (for adults). Everyone should stop doing that.

here's a link to the pdf: clicky

I think the biggest problem with the claim of "no safe level" is that the subjects were asked about alcohol consumption at the time of the scan. It doesn't look at drinking history. Someone who drank binge by the bucket when young but now hardly ever does may have damage, but would count as a moderate drinker. Also, their plots don't look particularly linear to me close to no alcohol intake, but they say their stats say it is, which confuses me, but I only skimmed the paper. I'm sure someone else knows more about that than I do.

ETA: beaten on posting the link

[lpm]

It's amazing isn't it, how capitalism always discovers stuff we buy is good for us. And those studies are always unimpeachable.

How strange any studies that discover stuff we buy is bad for us are promptly found to be flawed.

You'd think it would average out, just by chance. But no.

[Boustrophedon]

IQ Klaxon! Actually it was Lewis Carroll from Alice in Wonderland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_O ... 0again.%22

IQ klaxon? Is that because your IQ has been affected by immoderate drinking?

Probably, or eyesight from too much... But at 62, I say f.ck it.

[lpm]

Being on holiday every day sounds awesome too.

Coming back to this. Yes, it sounds awesome. But it isn't. Self esteem and self-identity is tied to work, with further correlation of self esteem to happiness. People who don't work for £ tend to replace that activity with "pseudo-work" - activities that give a sense of achievement and purpose. Lazing on a sunbed is great for a week but few humans seem to be able to do it for a lifetime.

The unhappiest people I know are the wealthy "ladies who lunch" who are constantly trapped in a loop of demand-complaint-dissatisfaction-demand. They don't enjoy going out to lunch because a restaurant meal is never perfect. It's rarity that, for most of us, makes a restaurant meal good enough to be extremely enjoyable.

It's hard to split out choice from addiction with products like alcohol. Not talking about physical dependency, which is a thing at high doses, but the moderate drinking levels of casual "normal" drinking. The whole psychological addiction arena is poorly understood but it's unlikely that pleasure is the purpose of drinking for large numbers of the population. There's no rarity to the experience but there is an endless loop of dissatisfaction. When you're permanently on holiday you get no satisfaction from the holiday; likewise weekly alcohol appears to give little reward.