Firearms oversight

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Woodchopper
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:15 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:21 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:03 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:49 pm

You have to remember that the direct cause of the first shots of the American revolution at Concord and Lexington was a British Army raid to seize the militia stockpile of arms and ammunition.

Like the 3rd Amendment, the 2nd Amendment should probably be seen as a historical artefact of one of the causes of the Declaration of Independence as much as some high principle.
I wouldn't go that far. Article 1, Section 8 Clauses 15-16 deal with the raising and arming of a militia. So the US constitution explicitly envisages the creation of both. This isn't unusual. At the time Britain also had the ability to raise standing army and navy and territorial militias.

PS In the earlier post I should have written Article 1 Section 8 Clauses 12-14
There's a big difference between giving the government the power to do something, which is what Article 1 does, and the Bill of Rights, which denies powers to the government. You should read the Bill of Rights as the negative of Article 1.
Fair enough, but there were compulsory and voluntary state militia units through until the 20th Century. For example, they played an important role in the early period of the Civil War when the Confederate army was being established and the Union arms was being expanded. Of course the militia units were crap, being badly trained and poorly armed.

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dyqik
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by dyqik » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:08 pm

Federal government powers vs State government powers is another factor there you have to remember though.

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jimbob
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by jimbob » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:22 am

Apparently this is from the judgement...

hmm.

1.COVID vaccines are more dangerous than assault weapons. Benitez spilled a great deal of ink arguing that mass shootings involving assault weapons are “infinitesimally rare.” “More people have died from the Covid-19 vaccine than mass shootings in California.”

2. The judge wrote that “the injuries from firearms like the AR-15” are “no different from other firearms that are common and lawful to own.”
The growing number of ER doctors who have treated mass shooting victims know this is a lie. A typical AR-15 bullet travels three times faster than a typical 9 mm handgun bullet, imparting three times more energy. The result is carnage; AR-15 bullets disintegrate bones, destroy organs, and leave gaping exit wounds that increase the risk of bleeding out.

3. “Simply brandishing such a weapon (AR 15) may cause an intruder to flee precisely because it appears to be dangerous and fully loaded,” he declared. “It is difficult to imagine the same psychological effect on a home invader (or two invaders)from brandishing a 2-shot derringer. It is a reasonable inference that the visual threat presented by a homeowner holding a modern rifle with a large magazine makes it an effective deterrent without firing a shot.”

Benitez rejected a study that found that most people need just 2.2 shots when using a gun in self-defense. He called this finding “a myth” because it rested partly on news reports of shootings and included incidents when no shots were fired. The study, he wrote, “fails the scientific method.”



4.Banning assault weapons leads to mass rape. Benitez cited FBI statistics that between 2003 and 2007, 7,700 women were raped during a home invasion. If all those women had “been armed with an assault weapon,” the judge wrote, they “may not have suffered a violent victimization.”
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

FlammableFlower
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:39 am

:shock:

I'm trying to think of another response, but just... wow. He thinks more people have died from COVID vaccinations than mass shootings.

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Martin Y
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:01 am

It might be enlightening to discover what the comparative figures are versus what he imagines they are for mass shooting deaths and vaccine deaths in CA.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:36 am

jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:22 am

2. The judge wrote that “the injuries from firearms like the AR-15” are “no different from other firearms that are common and lawful to own.”
The growing number of ER doctors who have treated mass shooting victims know this is a lie. A typical AR-15 bullet travels three times faster than a typical 9 mm handgun bullet, imparting three times more energy. The result is carnage; AR-15 bullets disintegrate bones, destroy organs, and leave gaping exit wounds that increase the risk of bleeding out.
It can be worse. A bullet from an AR15 has is about three times the energy. But a larger 7.62mm caliber bullet has about five times the energy (as the mass of the projectile is greater).

In terms of the damage to the victim it matters enormously what combination of firearm and ammunition was used.

Very high powered rifle bullets have up to circa 13 times the energy of a pistol bullet. But they wouldn't be fired from an assault rifle.

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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by IvanV » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:15 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:39 am
...He thinks more people have died from COVID vaccinations than mass shootings.
He might have looked at what the Center for Disease Control said and misunderstood it. At first glance, you might think that 4863 deaths in the USA are due to COVID vaccination (near the bottom). But this is just the number of people who died shortly after having the vaccine. Very few of them are attributable to the vaccine. The great majority will have died because their time had come by chance just after having the vaccine.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... vents.html

The kind of absurd things the judge said are widely believed in the US, including by influential people such as supreme court judges. Or at least they make it a mark of their tribe to treat them as true regardless of the evidence. So we can imagine that whether this case is overturned will be based on dogma rather than dispassionate evaluation of evidence.

I think the US arrangement whereby the president chooses supreme court judges is terrible governance.

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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by monkey » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:59 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:36 am
jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:22 am

2. The judge wrote that “the injuries from firearms like the AR-15” are “no different from other firearms that are common and lawful to own.”
The growing number of ER doctors who have treated mass shooting victims know this is a lie. A typical AR-15 bullet travels three times faster than a typical 9 mm handgun bullet, imparting three times more energy. The result is carnage; AR-15 bullets disintegrate bones, destroy organs, and leave gaping exit wounds that increase the risk of bleeding out.
It can be worse. A bullet from an AR15 has is about three times the energy. But a larger 7.62mm caliber bullet has about five times the energy (as the mass of the projectile is greater).

In terms of the damage to the victim it matters enormously what combination of firearm and ammunition was used.

Very high powered rifle bullets have up to circa 13 times the energy of a pistol bullet. But they wouldn't be fired from an assault rifle.
If the bullet is going 3x as fast, it has 9x the energy and 3x the momentum (with the same mass).

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Woodchopper
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:08 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:59 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:36 am
jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:22 am

2. The judge wrote that “the injuries from firearms like the AR-15” are “no different from other firearms that are common and lawful to own.”
The growing number of ER doctors who have treated mass shooting victims know this is a lie. A typical AR-15 bullet travels three times faster than a typical 9 mm handgun bullet, imparting three times more energy. The result is carnage; AR-15 bullets disintegrate bones, destroy organs, and leave gaping exit wounds that increase the risk of bleeding out.
It can be worse. A bullet from an AR15 has is about three times the energy. But a larger 7.62mm caliber bullet has about five times the energy (as the mass of the projectile is greater).

In terms of the damage to the victim it matters enormously what combination of firearm and ammunition was used.

Very high powered rifle bullets have up to circa 13 times the energy of a pistol bullet. But they wouldn't be fired from an assault rifle.
If the bullet is going 3x as fast, it has 9x the energy and 3x the momentum (with the same mass).
You can do your own calculations here: http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bulle ... energy.php

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Martin Y
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:17 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:15 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:39 am
...He thinks more people have died from COVID vaccinations than mass shootings.
He might have looked at what the Center for Disease Control said and misunderstood it. At first glance, you might think that 4863 deaths in the USA are due to COVID vaccination (near the bottom). But this is just the number of people who died shortly after having the vaccine. Very few of them are attributable to the vaccine. The great majority will have died because their time had come by chance just after having the vaccine.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... vents.html

The kind of absurd things the judge said are widely believed in the US, including by influential people such as supreme court judges. Or at least they make it a mark of their tribe to treat them as true regardless of the evidence. So we can imagine that whether this case is overturned will be based on dogma rather than dispassionate evaluation of evidence.

I think the US arrangement whereby the president chooses supreme court judges is terrible governance.
Ah, yes, but you don't know if it works the other way too: how many wounded people fleeing a mass shooting accidentally ran in front of a bus? They might have died *with* holes in them rather than *of* the holes in them. Or maybe got mass-shot while going to get vaccinated and then died of that, because I've totally heard that's a thing.

monkey
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by monkey » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:20 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:08 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:59 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:36 am


It can be worse. A bullet from an AR15 has is about three times the energy. But a larger 7.62mm caliber bullet has about five times the energy (as the mass of the projectile is greater).

In terms of the damage to the victim it matters enormously what combination of firearm and ammunition was used.

Very high powered rifle bullets have up to circa 13 times the energy of a pistol bullet. But they wouldn't be fired from an assault rifle.
If the bullet is going 3x as fast, it has 9x the energy and 3x the momentum (with the same mass).
You can do your own calculations here: http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bulle ... energy.php
I'm not that fussed. I just thought that the quote was mixing up energy and momentum. I guess the word "imparted" is important. If there's an exit wound, the bullet didn't impart all its energy.

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jimbob
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by jimbob » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:01 am

monkey wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:59 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:36 am
jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:22 am

2. The judge wrote that “the injuries from firearms like the AR-15” are “no different from other firearms that are common and lawful to own.”
The growing number of ER doctors who have treated mass shooting victims know this is a lie. A typical AR-15 bullet travels three times faster than a typical 9 mm handgun bullet, imparting three times more energy. The result is carnage; AR-15 bullets disintegrate bones, destroy organs, and leave gaping exit wounds that increase the risk of bleeding out.
It can be worse. A bullet from an AR15 has is about three times the energy. But a larger 7.62mm caliber bullet has about five times the energy (as the mass of the projectile is greater).

In terms of the damage to the victim it matters enormously what combination of firearm and ammunition was used.

Very high powered rifle bullets have up to circa 13 times the energy of a pistol bullet. But they wouldn't be fired from an assault rifle.
If the bullet is going 3x as fast, it has 9x the energy and 3x the momentum (with the same mass).
Yes, I spotted that in the quote after it was too late to comment on it.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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veravista
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by veravista » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:23 am

I've heard that lots of people thank the lord that the bullet that hit them was only travelling at a third of the speed of the equivalent assault rifle projectile. Probably.

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dyqik
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Re: Firearms oversight

Post by dyqik » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:05 am

veravista wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:23 am
I've heard that lots of people thank the lord that the bullet that hit them was only travelling at a third of the speed of the equivalent assault rifle projectile. Probably.
Since for some it'll be the difference between (possibly internally) bleeding to death or not, then there probably are people who do. The numbers injured by guns in the US is commensurate with the numbers killed.

See jimbob's post above.

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