Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
secret squirrel
Snowbonk
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:36 am

plodder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:15 am
You won't be offending me, I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. But I did work in a small collective organisation for over a decade and it was hamstrung by Handforth Parish Council style decision making. It was, constantly, a very very silly place to work.

It was also, interestingly, directly competing with a local authority services (charging for a service that people were already paying for out of taxation) and it demonstrated that even if hamstrung by silliness the private sector can significantly outperform "centrally co-ordinated" services, even to the point where people will pay twice (see also: health insurance). It's still going almost 20 years after I left, and it's just as silly as ever.
To be fair though, your organization would have been even sillier if it had been organized along anarcho capitalist lines. Also, the fact that people are prepared to pay extra for a private service that they already get from the government (paid for by taxation) does not in itself show that the private sector outperforms the government (though they may do in some cases). To draw that conclusion you would have to work out how the government would perform if they had access to the extra resources going instead to the private sector, and also take into account the fact that people pay for private services mostly for themselves, while the government (in theory) tries to use their funds to benefit lots of people. I mean, yes, sure someone's private health treatment might be better than what they would get from the NHS, but they're probably paying more for it, and all the money they spend is going towards their personal treatment, rather than being put into a pool that's also used to fund healthcare for poor people. It doesn't tell you anything about who runs the most efficient hospitals. There's also a lot of evidence that significant central direction (though not full Stalinist command economy, obviously) is better for economic growth. See e.g. literally every economic development success story of the 20th century.

plodder
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by plodder » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:14 am

Well, in our case, we had nothing like the resources available to the local authority. We had better ideas and gumption, which is all it takes to raise funds anyway. Ironically, the thing that stopped us expanding and becoming a major player was the silliness. If we had been more capitalist then the UK would be far better at the thing we were (and they still are) very good at.

plodder
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by plodder » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:18 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:36 am
See e.g. literally every economic development success story of the 20th century.
I see silicon valley is missing from your list

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:33 am

:x
Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:46 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:46 pm
Quite a confused thread, with everybody seemingly operating to their own definition of anarchism.
Yes, It's total anarchy in here!
;)

For Kropotkin-style anarchy as mentioned in the OP we'll need mutually-agreed terms.

The discussion might become silly.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:37 am

As for the titular question, I don't see how anarchism can lead to failed states because anarchism by definition doesn't involve states.

There are quite a lot of examples where failed states have led to organisation along anarchist lines to at least some extent, not always with the intention of replacing state apparatus altogether - see, for example, the covid mutual aid groups that sprung up to support people against the backdrop of the UK's failure to do anything useful.

What tends to happen is that the state sorts itself out eventually, and either people cede control or have it taken from them.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

secret squirrel
Snowbonk
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:42 am

plodder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:18 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:36 am
See e.g. literally every economic development success story of the 20th century.
I see silicon valley is missing from your list
I'm talking about countries here. But since you brought it up, silicon valley benefited and continues to benefit massively from state funding of tech development, not to mention state provided education infrastructure. You almost could not have picked a worse example.

plodder
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by plodder » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:21 am

Um, silicon valley really, really isn't state controlled. They also operate in a place called "the world" where young people go to things called "schools", which are often (but not always) paid for in part through taxation - I'm not sure where else they'd get their staff from. I am not an anarcho-capitalist, but at least I understand the basics of why some people are.

secret squirrel
Snowbonk
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:23 am

plodder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:21 am
Um, silicon valley really, really isn't state controlled. They also operate in a place called "the world" where young people go to things called "schools", which are often (but not always) paid for in part through taxation - I'm not sure where else they'd get their staff from. I am not an anarcho-capitalist, but at least I understand the basics of why some people are.
secret squirrel wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:42 am
... silicon valley benefited and continues to benefit massively from state funding of tech development, not to mention state provided education infrastructure. You almost could not have picked a worse example.

plodder
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by plodder » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:25 am

Ah. You think silicon valley is a bad example of capitalism because it exploits whatever opportunities it can, and the state is so in thrall to their success they throw loads of tax dollars at it?

secret squirrel
Snowbonk
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 am

plodder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:25 am
Ah. You think silicon valley is a bad example of capitalism because it exploits whatever opportunities it can, and the state is so in thrall to their success they throw loads of tax dollars at it?
Silicon valley is a bad example of an economic success story free of government direction, because the state directed and funded all the foundational research that made it possible, and continues to shape development by targeted funding.

Kind of starting to worry you're not very sharp here mate.

plodder
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by plodder » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:46 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 am
plodder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:25 am
Ah. You think silicon valley is a bad example of capitalism because it exploits whatever opportunities it can, and the state is so in thrall to their success they throw loads of tax dollars at it?
Silicon valley is a bad example of an economic success story free of government direction, because the state directed and funded all the foundational research that made it possible, and continues to shape development by targeted funding.

Kind of starting to worry you're not very sharp here mate.
Show me the "significant central direction (though not full Stalinist command economy, obviously)" in place there, then.

User avatar
Sciolus
Dorkwood
Posts: 1314
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by Sciolus » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:45 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:18 pm
The existence of crime, criminals and riots is not an argument against my point.

We all know shoplifting exists and hence CCTV cameras and store detectives are needed. But I'm not going to start shoplifting if those cameras and guards disappear, nor would anyone else here. Like everyone else I believe in laws including those that aren't enforced. A small minority would take advantage of the opportunity, obviously. But rioters believe in the law, see it cannot be enforced and seize the opportunity. They don't reject the structure, they exploit the weaknesses.

Ultimately the riots you mention in London and Montreal have had zero impact. The rule of law is still in place, I can visit London and not be the victim of crime, the people of Montreal exert their property and other rights. Obviously the rule of law is always temporarily falling apart - every night in some city centre pub - but returns within minutes. It's incredibly robust in most of the world. A tiny police force and trivial state violence is sufficient to maintain stability that lasts centuries.
What an extraordinary claim.

User avatar
nekomatic
Dorkwood
Posts: 1377
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by nekomatic » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:08 pm

Parking rules are usually strictly enforced precisely because they command relatively little respect from those they apply to though. I bet you have less chance of getting nicked for shoplifting or burglary than of getting ticketed for parking on a double yellow, but I bet none of the good St Albanians quoted would dream of going out thieving of an evening.
Move-a… side, and let the mango through… let the mango through

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:24 am

The owner of a crystal healing shop, Philip Permutt, says the cars block the pavement on both sides of his store, stop ping people from coming inside. "Someone at the council should be shot," he said yesterday. "It's a joke."
Crystal healing and judicial executions, name a more iconic duo.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

plodder
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by plodder » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:35 am

we have a rare opportunity for an experiment. we could all go to St Albans and park badly, and see what happens.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:54 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:01 pm
Nearly all people go to prison willingly - they obey the prison officer. A few are violent. Even criminals believe in the power of the law - they mostly claim to be innocent, they rarely claim the court has no jurisdiction over them.

In England we're several centuries beyond "The law only works because the state has a monopoly on violence". The law works because it's the law. Same way money works because it's money. I don't believe these shared abstract beliefs will disappear given how deep routed they are in our society.

None of this is to say there aren't shoplifters, Covid rule breakers and violent criminals. But only a handful of these lawbreakers come up with fantasy arguments about being freeman of the land and the like.
Just going back to this. According to UK official statistics.

In the year ending 31 March 2020 UK police officers reported the use force in 492 000 incidents. Among those incidents they reported:
Physical restraint was used 452 000 times
Other 'unarmed skills' such as pressure point or joint locks were used 164 000 times.
Firearms were used 4 800 times (in the vast majority of incidents they weren't fired).
Tasers were used 33 000 times (in the great majority they were not discharged).
Batons, irritant spray, shields etc 32 000 times
Other tactics (such as the use of dogs) were used 30 000 times
[Some tactics may be used more than once in an incident]

Certainly, most people will peaceably follow the law when told to. But the police are still using force over a thousand times a day. And this is just the number of incidents they reported.

As mentioned, it only takes a small fraction of society to have a very severe effect upon public safety.

User avatar
jimbob
Light of Blast
Posts: 5276
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by jimbob » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:11 am

Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:01 pm
Certainly there are but health insurance under the British model appears to cost an awful lot less than under the American model. Maybe they're not representative of whatever system libertarians want to try, IDK, but the difference in approach and cost is stark.
Don't forget that the US also managed to cost more in taxes and compulsory spending even before the ACA.

Twitter links to an OECD graph

https://t.co/zwDK39cR61?amp=1
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
Sciolus
Dorkwood
Posts: 1314
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by Sciolus » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:30 am

Sciolus wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:45 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:18 pm
The existence of crime, criminals and riots is not an argument against my point.

We all know shoplifting exists and hence CCTV cameras and store detectives are needed. But I'm not going to start shoplifting if those cameras and guards disappear, nor would anyone else here. Like everyone else I believe in laws including those that aren't enforced. A small minority would take advantage of the opportunity, obviously. But rioters believe in the law, see it cannot be enforced and seize the opportunity. They don't reject the structure, they exploit the weaknesses.

Ultimately the riots you mention in London and Montreal have had zero impact. The rule of law is still in place, I can visit London and not be the victim of crime, the people of Montreal exert their property and other rights. Obviously the rule of law is always temporarily falling apart - every night in some city centre pub - but returns within minutes. It's incredibly robust in most of the world. A tiny police force and trivial state violence is sufficient to maintain stability that lasts centuries.
What an extraordinary claim.
Or if you're interested in the fact that a substantial minority of people will commit extremely serious crimes if there's no enforcement of the law, well, there's an entire thread for that.

User avatar
JQH
After Pie
Posts: 2141
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:30 pm
Location: Sar Flandan

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by JQH » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:32 am

And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

Fintan O'Toole

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by lpm » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:22 am

Sciolus wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:30 am
Sciolus wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:45 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:18 pm
The existence of crime, criminals and riots is not an argument against my point.

We all know shoplifting exists and hence CCTV cameras and store detectives are needed. But I'm not going to start shoplifting if those cameras and guards disappear, nor would anyone else here. Like everyone else I believe in laws including those that aren't enforced. A small minority would take advantage of the opportunity, obviously. But rioters believe in the law, see it cannot be enforced and seize the opportunity. They don't reject the structure, they exploit the weaknesses.

Ultimately the riots you mention in London and Montreal have had zero impact. The rule of law is still in place, I can visit London and not be the victim of crime, the people of Montreal exert their property and other rights. Obviously the rule of law is always temporarily falling apart - every night in some city centre pub - but returns within minutes. It's incredibly robust in most of the world. A tiny police force and trivial state violence is sufficient to maintain stability that lasts centuries.
What an extraordinary claim.
Or if you're interested in the fact that a substantial minority of people will commit extremely serious crimes if there's no enforcement of the law, well, there's an entire thread for that.
My answer to these would be the underlying problem is lack of belief in the law. Sometimes what the law says and what society believes becomes misaligned - driving at 80 on the motorway, smoking pot. Unfortunately it's not just a minority of men who believe the law is wrong on sexual assault, and believe harassment and sexual assault is not only normal but the correct behaviour of a hot blooded alpha male. When Hollywood movies constantly repeat the trope that women are won over by stalking and harassing, it's hardly surprising the majority thinks this is both legal and expected. Add to that a p.rnography industry that constantly normalises rape, assault and harassment, either genuine or acted out. Add to that the slow changes over generations, where sons grew up seeing their father control their mother.

It works both ways - a government making something illegal, smacking children say, does not instantly change the real world and smacking continues. But effectively losing illegality, not enforcing shoplifting say, also doesn't change the real world and we don't all start shoplifting.

But my optimism comes from comparing today's acceptance of law with that of 50, 100 or 200 years ago. A thing that was legal such as drink driving can become an unacceptable crime within mere decades.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

IvanV
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2663
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 11:12 am

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by IvanV » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:57 am

plodder wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:35 am
we have a rare opportunity for an experiment. we could all go to St Albans and park badly, and see what happens.
I already tried that, inadvertently, about 8 years ago. On one of only a handful of occasions I went to St Albans, I paid the fee in a pay-and-display car park, but got a parking ticket for being badly parked. I rarely get parking tickets, so the memory stands out.

bmforre
Snowbonk
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by bmforre » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:09 am

IvanV wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:57 am
... On one of only a handful of occasions I went to St Albans, I paid the fee in a pay-and-display car park, but got a parking ticket for being badly parked. I rarely get parking tickets, so the memory stands out.
Are you blaming that ticket on a fit of anarchism?

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:19 pm

For anyone interested in discussing anarchism, rather than the libertarianism / laissez-faire capitalism currently dominating the thread, there's a good piece here on FiveBooks - the basic premise is to get some kind of "expert" to discuss five important books on their chosen topic.

In this piece, Ruth Kinna (professor of Political Theory at Loughborough University) gives a nice - and by no means uncritical - overview of the history and breadth of anarchist thought, and how it overlaps with socialism, labour movements, feminist movements and various revolutions.

The important distinction between anarchism and what people are discussing here is that it's based on voluntary cooperation between groups:
Anarchists start from a very different foundation: that we naturally cooperate. It may be in a very sociable way, in the sense that we have friendly relations, or it might mean in a thinner way, that we can cooperate despite our anxieties, antagonisms, and conflicts. And anarchists think that it is through this cooperation that we will build our institutions.

It’s very difficult for political theorists to think about anarchism in any other way than negative, because it seems to contradict everything that politics is based on: the idea that we need a constructed and defined order, and that we can’t coordinate our actions unless somebody helps us do it. Anarchists come along with the idea that anarchy is order, and what exists is disorder. That frightens people.
Free agreement is what defines your politics, and it’s linked theoretically to ideas of fluidity and flux. In anarchy there’s no such thing as a final accord, or a set of rules against which we judge everything else. It’s a process we enter into. That’s the starting point. He [Kropotkin] then explains that this idea has been around forever: we can see it in the Greeks, in ancient Chinese thought, it’s everywhere. It was crystallised in the modern day through the organisation of the First International. From the 1860s onwards, we see a political movement we can call anarchist, which is taking this timeless idea of fluidity, flux and free agreement, and putting it within the particular context of the struggle of workers against exploiters. He also talks about masters and slaves, and domination.

In this sense he says that you can put anarchism on the left of socialism, because anarchists are not people who simply want to take control of the government and use its instruments in order to bring about equality; they want to completely abolish this system that imposes sets of rules and regulations that you must always judge your practice against. That’s why it’s on the left.
She also makes the worthwhile point that a lot of social progress and dismantling of authoritarianism has come from anarchistic movements, even if they didn't ultimately result in anarchism:
If you read this book, you’ll get a much better idea of how small groups, and sometimes handfuls of individuals, actually built significant movements in areas where perhaps people don’t normally think that anarchism had any presence. Argentina, Cuba, China, Egypt, South Africa, are all mentioned and studied. This is a network of labour movements that were feeding from common ideas, and organising in local contexts to fight local struggles in particular ways. In this way it’s possible to see anarchism as a much more significant force for change than is typical in Europe today.
For instance, trade unions and other workers' and residents' associations were instrumental in bringing about the 1974 Carnation Revolution in Portugal. It's sometimes painted as a military coup, but was really more of a strike by junior officers against the senior military officials propping up the authoritarian dictatorship. Voluntary associations of the masses cooperated throughout a period of turbulent restructuring, and two years later free elections were held. The Estado Novo was a failed state, whereas anarchist movements helped bring the modern democracy of Portugal into being.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

secret squirrel
Snowbonk
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by secret squirrel » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:03 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:19 pm
For anyone interested in discussing anarchism, rather than the libertarianism / laissez-faire capitalism currently dominating the thread, there's a good piece here on FiveBooks - the basic premise is to get some kind of "expert" to discuss five important books on their chosen topic...
Thanks for the link.

IvanV
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2663
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 11:12 am

Re: Anarchism - does it lead to failed states

Post by IvanV » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:41 pm

Many thanks also. I was acquainted with Ruth Kinna as a student, many years ago.

Post Reply