Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

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Gfamily
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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Gfamily » Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:52 pm

BBC Radio 4 programme on Tuesday next about 'Bad Apples' in the Met - specifically, bullying, sexual harassment and violence from the ranks towards female officers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0015ltf
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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by bagpuss » Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:20 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:02 am
In terms of the school contacting the police, my sense from reading the earlier part of the report is that this is an expected behaviour in terms of government advice, if teachers believe that a student is in contact with drugs. Might have misunderstood that, but one of the main conclusions of the report was that the teachers were right to contact the police and doing so constituted good curiosity about the situation.

Not saying I agree with any of that, btw.
The "good curiosity" phrase was used in connection with the teachers searching her bags and clothing. I can't find any specific findings in the report relating to whether the school should have called the police in or not.

The closest I can find to any comment on the school calling in the police is this:
2.16 In the school’s Stage 2 investigation report, its author commented: ‘The involvement of the police in this manner is an irregular occurrence at the Academy. In the 12 months prior to the incident the Academy had not requested police involvement about searches or suspicion of possession of banned/illegal items for students.
(Italics per the report)

But this doesn't make it clear whether this is because no student had been suspected of possible possession of drugs in the previous 12 months or whether there had been similar suspicions in the previous 12 months but the police had not been called.


There is also this:
5.1 It has been a relatively straightforward process for the review to conclude that Child Q should never have been strip searched. Across many of the professionals involved that day, there was an absence of a safeguarding first approach to their practice. There were other ways that this incident could and should have been managed, beyond the largely criminal justice response from the police and the disciplinary response from the school.
Nothing explicit about whether the police should have been called but definitely clear that safeguarding should have been the first priority, not disciplinary/criminal responses.


And this:
5.18 Indeed, the section covering what should happen after a search contains no reference to Keeping Children Safe in Education 2018 or the expectation that schools should escalate their concerns when indicators of abuse, harm or exploitation are identified. Being in possession of drugs is one such indicator, although the only external agency identified in the guidance for contact is the police.
This refers to the DfE's guidance on searching, screening, etc. Again, nothing specific about whether the police should have been called but appears to criticise the guidance for only mentioning the police as a possible external agency to contact. So here there is perhaps a suggestion that the school may have been following that guidance, although again there are no specifics, but that the guidance is crap.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:23 am

Ah okay, fair enough. Must have misunderstood then - thanks for clarifying.
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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by bagpuss » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:01 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:23 am
Ah okay, fair enough. Must have misunderstood then - thanks for clarifying.
Reading back, I rather over-egged that response. Hope it didn't come across as too over the top and sledgehammer/nutcracking - I initially only meant to point out you'd misread the point about good curiosity and then decided to go through the report again to see if I'd missed anything about calling the police.

Funnily enough, I initially read that good curiosity bit exactly the same way you did, which is why I immediately realised your error. I was really surprised at that finding so went back and re-read the paragraph more carefully at which point I realised my own error. I'm not sure why as it seems pretty clear that it's about the school's initial search but obviously something about the way it's worded, or the way we both skim-read it, made us make the same mistake.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by jimbob » Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:08 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... dApp_Other

The Metropolitan police’s ability to tackle corruption is “fundamentally flawed”, the policing inspectorate has found in a damning report into the Daniel Morgan murder.

The report from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services was ordered after an independent panel criticised the Met for failings over the Morgan murder, where corruption hampered the hunt for the killers of the private eye.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Sciolus » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:08 pm

bagpuss wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:01 am
Funnily enough, I initially read that good curiosity bit exactly the same way you did, which is why I immediately realised your error. I was really surprised at that finding so went back and re-read the paragraph more carefully at which point I realised my own error. I'm not sure why as it seems pretty clear that it's about the school's initial search but obviously something about the way it's worded, or the way we both skim-read it, made us make the same mistake.
Me three, I think because it's a gap in the report which is otherwise well-written and exhaustive.

Anyway: Two (of the four) Met officers "were removed from frontline duties on 17 March, a Met spokesperson confirmed, three days after the publication of the damning report from the City & Hackney Safeguarding Children Partnership, and more than 15 months after the 3 December 2020 search." The best bit in the BBC report is:
A member of the public also questioned why the team hosting Wednesday's meeting was made up of three white male police officers.

Det Supt Dan Rutland acknowledged that while the panel did not reflect the local community, they were the senior leadership team of Hackney Police.
*Insert "Well there's your problem" meme here*

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Sciolus » Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:52 pm

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/three-quarte ... ly-divers/
Thousands of strip searches have been carried out by police on children in London in recent years, most of them from ethnic backgrounds, it has emerged in the wake of the Child Q scandal.

Of the 5,279 children searched in the past three years, 3,939 (75%) were from ethnically diverse backgrounds. A total of 16 of them were aged between 10 and 12 years old.

This data only covers children who were strip searched after an arrest, including 2,000 for drug offences, meaning the real number of youths strip searched in London will be even higher.

The figures wouldn't include the case of Child Q, for instance, as she was never arrested.

The Met's already under pressure over its use of the tactic, after a damning report found racism was a factor in a black 15-year-old girl, "Child Q", being strip searched while on her period at her school in Hackney, without an appropriate adult in the room.

For context, recent ONS data found that nearly 60% of people in the capital are white, suggesting people who are from an ethnically diverse background are far more likely to be strip searched.
It was 1999 when McPherson said the Met was institutionally racist. The majority of its current members will have joined after that.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by jimbob » Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:26 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:52 pm
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/three-quarte ... ly-divers/
Thousands of strip searches have been carried out by police on children in London in recent years, most of them from ethnic backgrounds, it has emerged in the wake of the Child Q scandal.

Of the 5,279 children searched in the past three years, 3,939 (75%) were from ethnically diverse backgrounds. A total of 16 of them were aged between 10 and 12 years old.

This data only covers children who were strip searched after an arrest, including 2,000 for drug offences, meaning the real number of youths strip searched in London will be even higher.

The figures wouldn't include the case of Child Q, for instance, as she was never arrested.

The Met's already under pressure over its use of the tactic, after a damning report found racism was a factor in a black 15-year-old girl, "Child Q", being strip searched while on her period at her school in Hackney, without an appropriate adult in the room.

For context, recent ONS data found that nearly 60% of people in the capital are white, suggesting people who are from an ethnically diverse background are far more likely to be strip searched.
It was 1999 when McPherson said the Met was institutionally racist. The majority of its current members will have joined after that.
Appalling but not surprising
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by shpalman » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:39 am

Stopped for... checks notes... wearing a jacket while black.
molto tricky

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by jimbob » Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:07 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:39 am
Stopped for... checks notes... wearing a jacket while black.
A statement from the Metropolitan police said the man was “wearing several layers of clothing despite the warm weather” and he “became hostile and refused to account for what he was doing” after being approached by officers from the violent crime taskforce.
given the previous LBC story where one 19 year old says he's been strip searched 20 times, I think hostility is a natural reaction
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Sciolus » Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:40 am

If someone is wearing a large bulky coat while everyone else is wearing t-shirts, it's reasonable for police to wonder if they're concealing anything they shouldn't (because criminals don't use bags, obviously), and some polite enquiries and a request to open the coat should not be out of order. If the police had decent community relations, and didn't have a track record of wildly disproportionate behaviour, this could have been a 30-second interaction.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by bjn » Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:19 am

Sciolus wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:40 am
If someone is wearing a large bulky coat while everyone else is wearing t-shirts, it's reasonable for police to wonder if they're concealing anything they shouldn't (because criminals don't use bags, obviously), and some polite enquiries and a request to open the coat should not be out of order. If the police had decent community relations, and didn't have a track record of wildly disproportionate behaviour, this could have been a 30-second interaction.
While it might be reasonable to wonder, it's not reasonable to stop and search someone because they are wearing a coat.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:21 am

shpalman wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:39 am
Stopped for... checks notes... wearing a jacket while black.
I had this happen to me. Met Police, because I was wearing a leather jacket. Was going to a gig. Not downplaying this, in my case policeman was threatening, abusive and utterly unprofessional, can only assume it's a common excuse they use when they want to throw their weight around and be c.nts.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by gosling » Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:43 pm

Not relevant in this case, but if I see someone wearing a coat when I'm in a t-shirt, I assume they're from a country where 17 degrees C is not hot, rather than trying to conceal something nefarious.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by jimbob » Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:01 pm

gosling wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:43 pm
Not relevant in this case, but if I see someone wearing a coat when I'm in a t-shirt, I assume they're from a country where 17 degrees C is not hot, rather than trying to conceal something nefarious.
Yes. There is a bit of a running joke at work with one of the test engineers who's Mexican and spends about 11 months a year in a down jacket. Another colleague did ask me when Summer would happen in his first year... but he'd been working in Singapore then Korea.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by dyqik » Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:27 pm

gosling wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:43 pm
Not relevant in this case, but if I see someone wearing a coat when I'm in a t-shirt, I assume they're from a country where 17 degrees C is not hot, rather than trying to conceal something nefarious.
On a similar theme, I regularly pack snow boots and ski jackets to go to Hawaii.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Opti » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:48 am

gosling wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:43 pm
Not relevant in this case, but if I see someone wearing a coat when I'm in a t-shirt, I assume they're from a country where 17 degrees C is not hot, rather than trying to conceal something nefarious.
We just got back from visiting fam in Wales. 17 degrees, most wearing T-shirts and shorts. When it's 17 degrees here it's time for your big coat. I wore mine in Wales. I guess I was lucky not to be stopped and searched. Then again I'm an old, white f.ck.
Time for a big fat one.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:04 am

My mother in law's brother visited from Singapore during the summer a few years ago, and he and his wife spent the entire time here wearing parkas.
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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by bagpuss » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:50 am

shpalman wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:39 am
Stopped for... checks notes... wearing a jacket while black.
I see the police are justifying the incident because he became hostile and refused to account for what he was doing. Yeah, I think I'd be pretty hostile if the police stopped me and wanted to search me purely* because I wasn't wearing the clothes they thought were appropriate and I'm not sure I'd be terribly inclined to explain why, either, because why on earth should I have to? It's a good thing for Mr Bagpuss that he's white because one day last week we went out for lunch, me wearing a short sleeved top and an unzipped lightweight cardigan, him in shirt, jumper and a coat. This is normal - he feels the cold a lot more than I do.

And FFS, it wasn't even all that hot last week, it is March after all, not June. At no point would I have left the house without some kind of long-sleeved top or jacket because most days there was some level of breeze that meant it was quite cool anywhere shady.




*Although, we all know they wouldn't, because I'm a middle-aged middle-class white woman, and it was never purely about what he was wearing, obviously.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by jimbob » Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:34 am

bagpuss wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:50 am
shpalman wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:39 am
Stopped for... checks notes... wearing a jacket while black.
I see the police are justifying the incident because he became hostile and refused to account for what he was doing. Yeah, I think I'd be pretty hostile if the police stopped me and wanted to search me purely* because I wasn't wearing the clothes they thought were appropriate and I'm not sure I'd be terribly inclined to explain why, either, because why on earth should I have to? It's a good thing for Mr Bagpuss that he's white because one day last week we went out for lunch, me wearing a short sleeved top and an unzipped lightweight cardigan, him in shirt, jumper and a coat. This is normal - he feels the cold a lot more than I do.

And FFS, it wasn't even all that hot last week, it is March after all, not June. At no point would I have left the house without some kind of long-sleeved top or jacket because most days there was some level of breeze that meant it was quite cool anywhere shady.




*Although, we all know they wouldn't, because I'm a middle-aged middle-class white woman, and it was never purely about what he was wearing, obviously.
And don't forget the wider context, the link Sciolus posted.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/three-quarte ... ly-divers/

If I had been stopped 17 times and strip searched four times including once as a minor without any ither adult, the hostility would be even more understandable.

Individual officers in the Met need to earn the right to not face hostility. At the moment, it's reasonable for a member of the public to presume that the one they're interacting with is a corrupt bigot until shown otherwise.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by bagpuss » Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:38 am

jimbob wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:34 am
bagpuss wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:50 am
shpalman wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:39 am
Stopped for... checks notes... wearing a jacket while black.
I see the police are justifying the incident because he became hostile and refused to account for what he was doing. Yeah, I think I'd be pretty hostile if the police stopped me and wanted to search me purely* because I wasn't wearing the clothes they thought were appropriate and I'm not sure I'd be terribly inclined to explain why, either, because why on earth should I have to? It's a good thing for Mr Bagpuss that he's white because one day last week we went out for lunch, me wearing a short sleeved top and an unzipped lightweight cardigan, him in shirt, jumper and a coat. This is normal - he feels the cold a lot more than I do.

And FFS, it wasn't even all that hot last week, it is March after all, not June. At no point would I have left the house without some kind of long-sleeved top or jacket because most days there was some level of breeze that meant it was quite cool anywhere shady.




*Although, we all know they wouldn't, because I'm a middle-aged middle-class white woman, and it was never purely about what he was wearing, obviously.
And don't forget the wider context, the link Sciolus posted.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/three-quarte ... ly-divers/

If I had been stopped 17 times and strip searched four times including once as a minor without any ither adult, the hostility would be even more understandable.

Individual officers in the Met need to earn the right to not face hostility. At the moment, it's reasonable for a member of the public to presume that the one they're interacting with is a corrupt bigot until shown otherwise.
Excellent points. I'd somehow missed Sciolus' link before so thanks for highlighting that. And I totally agree re your last sentence.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Opti » Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:30 am

When I was about 20, with long hippy hair, I got stopped 4 out of 5 days one week driving from Staines to Weybridge to go to work at the Central Vet Lab. Using my dads car. 2 of those occasions by the same police officers. Me and the car were thoroughly searched 'for drugs' each time.
I told my dad about it and we decided to make a complaint. A while later I got an apology from the Chief Constable of Surrey Police.

It probably helped that my dad was a Met. Police Officer.
Nothing has changed in 50 years.
Time for a big fat one.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:03 am

Opti wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:30 am
When I was about 20, with long hippy hair, I got stopped 4 out of 5 days one week driving from Staines to Weybridge to go to work at the Central Vet Lab. Using my dads car. 2 of those occasions by the same police officers. Me and the car were thoroughly searched 'for drugs' each time.
I told my dad about it and we decided to make a complaint. A while later I got an apology from the Chief Constable of Surrey Police.

It probably helped that my dad was a Met. Police Officer.
Nothing has changed in 50 years.
Wow, you must have hidden the drugs very well ;)
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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Sciolus » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:06 am

Incidentally, this story got a brief mention on the R4 6 o'clock news on Friday, but there has been little web coverage from major news organisations: nothing on the BBC news website that I can find, The Times, the hasn't-been-Independent-for-years rehashing LBC, and that's all, so the source of the figures is unclear.

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Re: Met Police was (and still is) institutionally corrupt

Post by Opti » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:08 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:03 am
Opti wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:30 am
When I was about 20, with long hippy hair, I got stopped 4 out of 5 days one week driving from Staines to Weybridge to go to work at the Central Vet Lab. Using my dads car. 2 of those occasions by the same police officers. Me and the car were thoroughly searched 'for drugs' each time.
I told my dad about it and we decided to make a complaint. A while later I got an apology from the Chief Constable of Surrey Police.

It probably helped that my dad was a Met. Police Officer.
Nothing has changed in 50 years.
Wow, you must have hidden the drugs very well ;)
I kept a stash in my locker at work. The Vet labs was a wonderful place to work. 2 farms and a river running through it. Sunny lunchtimes on the riverbank were a delight. Of course, back in those days Friday lunchtime was all down the pub and POETS day.
Time for a big fat one.

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