Bishops contra communion for Biden

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Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by bmforre » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:56 am

Improved clearspeak against liberals.
U.S. Catholic bishops on Friday voted to back a measure that could be an early step toward limiting Communion for President Biden and other Catholic politicians who support abortion rights.
While a step in the right and orthodox direction this leaves important malpractices uncastigated. Specifically it does not put females sufficiently in their place.
The former guy was much better at that while this Biden administration have lots of women in positions of authority and power.

Do right: Castigate and chastise and keep firm control.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Tessa K » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:20 am

There were 70,412,021 registered Catholics in the United States (22% of the US population) in 2017, according to the American bishops' count in their Official Catholic Directory 2016
Although they won't all be hard core practicing Catholics, that's a big voter group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_ ... mographics

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Trinucleus » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:04 am

I'm never quite sure where the bible mentions abortion?

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am

"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Tessa K » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
Although it doesn't seem to cover the death penalty. Funny, that.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by shpalman » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:37 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
Although it doesn't seem to cover the death penalty. Funny, that.
The right to life stops applying once someone has been born.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by MartinDurkin » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:39 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
Although it doesn't seem to cover the death penalty. Funny, that.
The Catholic church doesn't support the death penalty.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:46 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
Although it doesn't seem to cover the death penalty. Funny, that.
At least in some places it explicitly calls for the death penalty as a punishment for murder - a life for a life, etc. - and for other 'sins', such as men having sex with each other.

But most fetuses haven't committed any crimes or sins. You could perhaps make a case that abortions are biblically consistent in cases where the mother's life is at risk.

Such are the problems of basing one's moral code on a single ancient text.
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Tessa K » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:47 pm

MartinDurkin wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:39 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
Although it doesn't seem to cover the death penalty. Funny, that.
The Catholic church doesn't support the death penalty.
Ah right, they changed their minds in 2018. I don't see them threatening US presidents with excommunication if they don't abolish it though.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/stories/th ... -catechism

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:51 pm

Although one perhaps shouldn't generalise, as biblical interpretations are manifold. For instance:
The word "abortion" is not mentioned in the Bible, but much in the Bible speaks to the issue. The most obvious passage is from Exodus 21:22-25. This part of the Covenant Code legislates the case of a pregnant woman who becomes involved in a brawl between 2 men and has a miscarriage. A distinction is then made between the penalty that is to be exacted for the loss of the fetus and injury to the woman. For the fetus, a fine is paid as determined by the husband and the judges. However, if the woman is injured or dies, "lex talionis" is applied -- life for life, eye for eye, etc. The story has somewhat limited application to the current abortion debate since it deals with accidental and not willful pregnancy termination. Even so, the distinction made between the woman and the fetus is important. The woman is valued as a person under the convenant; the fetus is valued as property. Its status is certainly inferior to that of the woman. This passage gives no support to the parity argument that gives equal religious and moral worth to woman and fetus. The bibilical portrait of person does not begin with an explanation of conception but with a portrayal of the creation of Adam and Eve. Thus, the biblical portrait of a person is that of a complex, many-sided creature with the god-like ability and responsibility to make choices. The fetus does not meet those criteria. When considering the issue of abortion, the one who unquestionably fits this portrait of personhood is the pregnant woman. The abortion question focuses on the personhood of the woman, who in turn considers the potential personhood of the fetus in terms of the multiple dimensions of her own history and the future.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12178933/
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:58 pm

Jewish tradition also leans on that Exodus passage as indicating that fetuses don't have souls, fwiw
Across the country, as a wave of anti-abortion legislation reinvigorates the fight over reproductive rights, Jewish religious leaders, activists and women are speaking out in favor of a woman's right to choose, buoyed by their faith.

It’s not just that the U.S. shouldn’t be deriving law from poetic language, Ruttenberg said. It’s that the Jewish tradition has a distinctly different reading of the same texts. While conservative Christians use the Bible to argue that a fetus represents a human life, which makes abortion murder, Jews don’t believe that fetuses have souls and, therefore, terminating a pregnancy is no crime.

While some Orthodox rabbis have denounced abortion, within Jewish communities there’s considerable support for keeping it legal. Studies from the Pew Research Center show that Jews overwhelmingly (83%) support abortion rights. The National Council of Jewish Women, a 126-year-old organization that helped establish some of the first birth control clinics across the country, considers reproductive rights a cornerstone issue and has publicly condemned the strict abortion bans recently handed down in Alabama and Mississippi.
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1808776001
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by WFJ » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:08 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:58 pm
Jewish tradition also leans on that Exodus passage as indicating that fetuses don't have souls, fwiw
Across the country, as a wave of anti-abortion legislation reinvigorates the fight over reproductive rights, Jewish religious leaders, activists and women are speaking out in favor of a woman's right to choose, buoyed by their faith.

It’s not just that the U.S. shouldn’t be deriving law from poetic language, Ruttenberg said. It’s that the Jewish tradition has a distinctly different reading of the same texts. While conservative Christians use the Bible to argue that a fetus represents a human life, which makes abortion murder, Jews don’t believe that fetuses have souls and, therefore, terminating a pregnancy is no crime.

While some Orthodox rabbis have denounced abortion, within Jewish communities there’s considerable support for keeping it legal. Studies from the Pew Research Center show that Jews overwhelmingly (83%) support abortion rights. The National Council of Jewish Women, a 126-year-old organization that helped establish some of the first birth control clinics across the country, considers reproductive rights a cornerstone issue and has publicly condemned the strict abortion bans recently handed down in Alabama and Mississippi.
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1808776001
It's almost as if people decide what view they have first, then look for justification in their scripture.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Little waster » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:32 pm

Trinucleus wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:04 am
I'm never quite sure where the bible mentions abortion?
It does seem very fond of it in other places, so it is all a matter of context.


Trigger warnings: murder, genocide, murder, miscarriage, murder, infanticide, more murder, abortion, a bit more murder, cannibalism, murder, misogyny, murder of donkeys, shaving off beards, murder and eating shellfish

Spoiler:



I think the important things to remember is God loves us, He hates abortion and the Bible is His inerrant word, wholly without contradiction or mistake and remains of immense relevance to the modern world being as it is the sole bedrock of Western civilisation.
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:05 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
Although it doesn't seem to cover the death penalty. Funny, that.
We’re discussing the Catholic Church and their current doctrine is that:

the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, [Francis, Address to Participants in the Meeting organized by the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelization, 11 October 2017] and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:08 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:47 pm
MartinDurkin wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:39 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 pm


Although it doesn't seem to cover the death penalty. Funny, that.
The Catholic church doesn't support the death penalty.
Ah right, they changed their minds in 2018. I don't see them threatening US presidents with excommunication if they don't abolish it though.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/stories/th ... -catechism
Apologies, just came across this post.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:12 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
Catholic doctrine is as follows:

Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.

This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.

The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.

"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78

The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.

Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.

Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."79

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law.
When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined....
As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."80

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual....
It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."81

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."82

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."83

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities.

Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"84 which are unique and unrepeatable.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by basementer » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:21 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:47 pm
MartinDurkin wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:39 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:20 pm


Although it doesn't seem to cover the death penalty. Funny, that.
The Catholic church doesn't support the death penalty.
Ah right, they changed their minds in 2018. I don't see them threatening US presidents with excommunication if they don't abolish it though.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/stories/th ... -catechism
I wonder whether, when doctrine changes, do they consider that the old doctrine is thereby acknowledged as having been incorrect, or perhaps do they consider it was correct up until the moment of the change, after which the new one suddenly became the correct one?
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:46 pm

basementer wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:21 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:47 pm
MartinDurkin wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:39 pm


The Catholic church doesn't support the death penalty.
Ah right, they changed their minds in 2018. I don't see them threatening US presidents with excommunication if they don't abolish it though.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/stories/th ... -catechism
I wonder whether, when doctrine changes, do they consider that the old doctrine is thereby acknowledged as having been incorrect, or perhaps do they consider it was correct up until the moment of the change, after which the new one suddenly became the correct one?
As far as I know the Catholic belief is that doctrine develops. A tree starts as a tiny sapling and grows into a mighty oak, but it’s the same tree. Doctrine is made by people who have new ideas and have to live in different contexts so it’s expected to change over time, and has many times in the past.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Trinucleus » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:05 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it
So people shouldn't have guns then 😁

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Martin_B » Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:14 am

Trinucleus wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:05 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it
So people shouldn't have guns then 😁
Some interpretations have it as "Thou shalt not murder", which allows the ownership and use of guns in self-defense, and also the death penalty, as governmental killings in the name of justice aren't murder, apparently. :roll:
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by basementer » Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:50 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:46 pm
basementer wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:21 pm
I wonder whether, when doctrine changes, do they consider that the old doctrine is thereby acknowledged as having been incorrect, or perhaps do they consider it was correct up until the moment of the change, after which the new one suddenly became the correct one?
As far as I know the Catholic belief is that doctrine develops. A tree starts as a tiny sapling and grows into a mighty oak, but it’s the same tree. Doctrine is made by people who have new ideas and have to live in different contexts so it’s expected to change over time, and has many times in the past.
Thanks.
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:39 am

Martin_B wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:14 am
Trinucleus wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:05 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it
So people shouldn't have guns then 😁
Some interpretations have it as "Thou shalt not murder", which allows the ownership and use of guns in self-defense, and also the death penalty, as governmental killings in the name of justice aren't murder, apparently. :roll:
Yes, as far as I know the original Hebrew word meant to murder, slay or destroy. The ancient Jews obviously weren’t known for pacifism. So killing was permitted in war, self-defence and when judicially sanctioned.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Allo V Psycho » Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:01 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:12 pm


Catholic doctrine is as follows:

Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.

This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM
All my books are in store, so I cannot provide references, or even check them, but my memory is that the idea that the 'moment of conception' (sic) was the point of acquisition of full moral status is indeed relatively recent in the Catholic church, dating from a nineteenth century panic about breeding rates. Before that time, the early stages were viewed as 'animal' rather than human, so theologians had to worry about Jesus being 'animal' for part of his development. Something similar applied in Islam, where the appearance of 'blood and bone' marked the onset of human status (perhaps around 11 weeks of pregnancy - nine weeks after fertilisation). The Greeks and Romans regarded early terminations as 'restoration of the menses'.
The quote from Jeremiah
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you
Is ambiguous with regard to 'formed' - this could be taken to mean 'recognisable as human' - about the same time period.

The moment of ensoulment (presumably they mean it happens at fertilisation) isn't a theological problem for me - I don't believe in gods or goddesses - but since it is pretty straightforward to clone from early human fertilised eggs, I do wonder if that means that an embryologist doing this with humans would have the god like power to create new souls, or just split the existing soul. Kind of like a horcrux. And if souls are copied into the clone, and one of the clones is a sinner and the other devout, how does that get sorted out in Heaven/Hell terms?

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Cardinal Fang » Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:40 pm

Legal availability of abortions is a matter of law and therefore politics.

Biden, even if he wanted to, couldn't come out and say "that's it, abortions are banned" (don't think Biden would. He's more of a "I don't believe in it, but the decision is between the woman and her doctor" type of guy I think). He'd have to get the law changed to ban it.

So if the Catholic Church in the US wants to punish Biden for not banning abortion, then it is sticking it's nose into a political/state issue. If they want to do that then they should first of all give up all tax exemptions etc. Separation of Church and State has to go both ways.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Trinucleus » Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:38 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:12 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it, if you think a fetus is a kind of person.

There are other Bible bits where people care about unborn children, which supports that interpretation.
Catholic doctrine is as follows:

Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.

This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.

The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.

"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78

The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.

Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.

Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."79

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law.
When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined....
As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."80

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual....
It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."81

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."82

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."83

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities.

Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"84 which are unique and unrepeatable.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM
So that's what men want, not god

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