ID registration and social media

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snoozeofreason
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ID registration and social media

Post by snoozeofreason » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:25 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:18 pm
...
* FWIW I think this is a very dangerous idea that does nothing to tackle the actual problems of harassment and abuse on social media.
It is a very dangerous idea indeed! And the enthusiasm for it contrasts oddly with the reservations that get expressed about the idea of some kind of national ID card. Much concern gets expressed about the possibility that an authoritarian government might in some way abuse an ID card system, despite the fact that it's hard to see how it would prevent such a government from going about its authoritarian business. There seems to be a much more insouciant attitude to the creation of a system that not only identifies people, but allows their identities to be linked to every opinion that they have expressed on social media, despite the fact that an authoritarian government could very easily abuse that. Unless you are confident that social media companies would never reveal anybody's identity for the wrong reasons, it is much more sensible to worry about the mandatory ID on social media than about ID cards (mandatory or otherwise).

Note to mods: I am not great at spotting where the "on topic"/"off topic" borderline lies. If you think this comment would sit better in the ID card thread, feel free to move it.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by noggins » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:30 pm

The social media thing is backwards. Make anonymity compulsory for all, then abuse becomes just hot air.

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:33 pm

noggins wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:30 pm
The social media thing is backwards. Make anonymity compulsory for all, then abuse becomes just hot air.
I don’t think that’s correct. Some of the abuse isn’t linked to the victim’s identity.

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:43 pm

snoozeofreason wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:25 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:18 pm
...
* FWIW I think this is a very dangerous idea that does nothing to tackle the actual problems of harassment and abuse on social media.
It is a very dangerous idea indeed! And the enthusiasm for it contrasts oddly with the reservations that get expressed about the idea of some kind of national ID card. Much concern gets expressed about the possibility that an authoritarian government might in some way abuse an ID card system, despite the fact that it's hard to see how it would prevent such a government from going about its authoritarian business. There seems to be a much more insouciant attitude to the creation of a system that not only identifies people, but allows their identities to be linked to every opinion that they have expressed on social media, despite the fact that an authoritarian government could very easily abuse that. Unless you are confident that social media companies would never reveal anybody's identity for the wrong reasons, it is much more sensible to worry about the mandatory ID on social media than about ID cards (mandatory or otherwise).
Snooze, sorry to be rude, but this comment reads like it was written twenty years ago.

The Snowden revelations were in 2013 and everything we have learned since then has reinforced the message that people should not assume that anything they do online is hidden from governments, especially the authoritarian ones.

Today’s articles just reiterate that point: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... up-pegasus

Anyone doing anything remotely subversive in an authoritarian state should assume that their internet use is being monitored, and anyone visiting them from abroad should not take with them a smartphone or a computer.*

* If they have to take a device they should take a brand new device that hasn’t been near any personal data.

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by snoozeofreason » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:04 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:43 pm
Snooze, sorry to be rude, but this comment reads like it was written twenty years ago.
...
Well I've got to the sort of age where twenty years ago seems like yesterday and yesterday is a bit of a blur, so I shan't take offense. But I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me about. My argument was that we should be less worried about ID cards and more worried about proposals for mandatory ID verification when opening social media accounts. I would have thought that the ease with which governments can extract information from the internet makes that argument stronger, rather than weaker. Were you disagreeing with the first bit of my argument (that we should worry less about ID cards) or the second bit (that we should worry more about ID verification for social media), or both?
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:40 am

snoozeofreason wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:04 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:43 pm
Snooze, sorry to be rude, but this comment reads like it was written twenty years ago.
...
Well I've got to the sort of age where twenty years ago seems like yesterday and yesterday is a bit of a blur, so I shan't take offense. But I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me about. My argument was that we should be less worried about ID cards and more worried about proposals for mandatory ID verification when opening social media accounts. I would have thought that the ease with which governments can extract information from the internet makes that argument stronger, rather than weaker. Were you disagreeing with the first bit of my argument (that we should worry less about ID cards) or the second bit (that we should worry more about ID verification for social media), or both?
Just a rude comment on the second bit. Especially in authoritarian regimes the digital privacy train left the station many years ago.

It’s an issue that you and others definitely should be worried about.

I was just impolitely suggesting that given the enormous resources already deployed by intelligence agencies to surveil populations living in authoritarian states, registration on Twitter etc isn’t going to make much difference.

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:00 am

Started a new thread based on the derail in the voter fraud thread

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by snoozeofreason » Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:30 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:40 am
... I was just impolitely suggesting that given the enormous resources already deployed by intelligence agencies to surveil populations living in authoritarian states, registration on Twitter etc isn’t going to make much difference.
Your ideas about impoliteness sound even more antiquated than my ideas about digital privacy! I think you have to work a bit harder if you want to be rude on the internet these days, so I still haven't taken offense.

As to the substance of your post, I don't completely agree. I take your point that no one can rely on digital privacy nowadays. I generally assume that anything that I post on a forum, or write in an email, could, with a bit of effort, be traced back to me, and I try to work on the principle that I shouldn't type anything at my computer unless I would be prepared to print it on my T-shirt. But the "bit of effort" in the previous sentence is important, and it makes a difference how much effort is involved, and whether the effort is a per-person cost or a one-off cost.

Requiring people to provide ID when they sign up to Twitter or Facebook would turn the process of discovering their opinions and affiliations from something that was possible into something that was easy, even on a large scale. I think that does make a difference.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:11 pm

snoozeofreason wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:30 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:40 am
... I was just impolitely suggesting that given the enormous resources already deployed by intelligence agencies to surveil populations living in authoritarian states, registration on Twitter etc isn’t going to make much difference.
Your ideas about impoliteness sound even more antiquated than my ideas about digital privacy! I think you have to work a bit harder if you want to be rude on the internet these days, so I still haven't taken offense.

As to the substance of your post, I don't completely agree. I take your point that no one can rely on digital privacy nowadays. I generally assume that anything that I post on a forum, or write in an email, could, with a bit of effort, be traced back to me, and I try to work on the principle that I shouldn't type anything at my computer unless I would be prepared to print it on my T-shirt. But the "bit of effort" in the previous sentence is important, and it makes a difference how much effort is involved, and whether the effort is a per-person cost or a one-off cost.

Requiring people to provide ID when they sign up to Twitter or Facebook would turn the process of discovering their opinions and affiliations from something that was possible into something that was easy, even on a large scale. I think that does make a difference.
People already need to provide Facebook with ID and are supposed to use their real name.* I sent them a scan of my drivers license. Apparently they only keep the copy for a year.

Instagram and WhatsApp are tied to mobile phone apps, and so aren’t anonymous (at least in my experience you can’t activate a mobile OS without a credit card).

Twitter though does allow anonymous accounts.

A policy that people have to register their ID to use Twitter might assist an authoritarian regime if it could get the data from Twitter. But, as we agree, the authoritarian regime has lots of other ways to collect data on its people.


* Interestingly enough, the real name policy was a key element of why Facebook became much more successful than its rivals.

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by snoozeofreason » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:25 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:11 pm
People already need to provide Facebook with ID and are supposed to use their real name.* I sent them a scan of my drivers license. Apparently they only keep the copy for a year.

Instagram and WhatsApp are tied to mobile phone apps, and so aren’t anonymous (at least in my experience you can’t activate a mobile OS without a credit card).

Twitter though does allow anonymous accounts.

A policy that people have to register their ID to use Twitter might assist an authoritarian regime if it could get the data from Twitter. But, as we agree, the authoritarian regime has lots of other ways to collect data on its people.


* Interestingly enough, the real name policy was a key element of why Facebook became much more successful than its rivals.
I think rules may differ between different countries. I am pretty sure I have never had to supply credit card details when activating a phone OS in the UK (although it does seem to be increasingly hard to get SIMs that can be activated without a credit card). I did have to type in my passport details in order to stick a Japanese SIM into my phone though, and I think that is standard practice over there. I signed up to facebook yonks ago, and I don't think anyone can have asked me for ID, because I wouldn't have bothered to create an account if they did.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:32 pm

snoozeofreason wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:25 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:11 pm
People already need to provide Facebook with ID and are supposed to use their real name.* I sent them a scan of my drivers license. Apparently they only keep the copy for a year.

Instagram and WhatsApp are tied to mobile phone apps, and so aren’t anonymous (at least in my experience you can’t activate a mobile OS without a credit card).

Twitter though does allow anonymous accounts.

A policy that people have to register their ID to use Twitter might assist an authoritarian regime if it could get the data from Twitter. But, as we agree, the authoritarian regime has lots of other ways to collect data on its people.


* Interestingly enough, the real name policy was a key element of why Facebook became much more successful than its rivals.
I think rules may differ between different countries. I am pretty sure I have never had to supply credit card details when activating a new phone in the UK, but I did have to type in my passport details in order to stick a Japanese SIM into my phone. I signed up to facebook yonks ago, and I don't think anyone can have asked me for ID, because I wouldn't have bothered to create an account if they did.
I haven’t used Android, but you need to enter a credit card when you set up an Apple phone. Interesting about Facebook, I’ll see if there is a policy for different countries.

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Gfamily » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:33 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:11 pm
People already need to provide Facebook with ID and are supposed to use their real name.* I sent them a scan of my drivers license. Apparently they only keep the copy for a year.
?
I've never sent them anything and I've set up a couple of 'not my real name' accounts
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by tom p » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:33 pm

you do NOT need a CC to set up an android phone

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:47 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:33 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:11 pm
People already need to provide Facebook with ID and are supposed to use their real name.* I sent them a scan of my drivers license. Apparently they only keep the copy for a year.
?
I've never sent them anything and I've set up a couple of 'not my real name' accounts
Apparently Facebook only require is from some users.
https://www.idtheftcenter.org/facebooks ... ification/

I guess it thought I was interesting.

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Re: ID registration and social media

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:03 pm

tom p wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:33 pm
you do NOT need a CC to set up an android phone
Ok, so someone with an Android could be anonymous if they paid cash for costs on a pay as you go phone which they bought without providing indentification.

ETA though not of course if that person had used a credit card for any app installed on the phone.

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