Scrutable

You'd prefer to impose moral rules rather than economic ones? OK.

eta there's a thread about Afghanistan if you want to discuss the specifics?

plodder wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:45 am

You'd prefer to impose moral rules rather than economic ones? OK.

eta there's a thread about Afghanistan if you want to discuss the specifics?

I think they're moral rules in all cases, economics is just one of the tools we're considering using to enforce them. You're proposing to stop people gorging themselves on crud by changing the price of the crud. I'm thinking about why they want crud in the first place.

I am not proposing making crud more expensive as the end goal. I am proposing we put less effort into making crud as the end goal.

plodder wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:09 pm

I am not proposing making crud more expensive as the end goal. I am proposing we put less effort into making crud as the end goal.

As long as people want it, it will get made somewhere I think.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:34 am

Millennie Al wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:57 am

If you do something yourself, that's a cost to you. If you prefer to pay someone else to do it, they (and possibly you) pay tax on that, so to get someone else to do something you have to pay more than if you did it yourself.

Only if the other person is as efficient then you are. If they are much more efficient then its still a better use of time or money even after paying tax.

That depends on how efficent they are. Suppose the task costs you effort that you put at $110 but someone else puts at $100. You could pay them $105 and you'd both profit. Unless they pay tax at 20%, in which case they only get $84. They would need to charge over $125 to make it worth while, which is more than it costs you to do it yourself. In the absence of tax, this transaction adds $10 of value, so any tax which collects that amount or more prevents the transaction taking place. And, of course, that's the most simplistic tax scheme. In reality there are likely to be further hidden taxes, such as a requirement to keep records of payments, and possibly to check and record right to work.

sheldrake wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:00 am

plodder wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:45 am

You'd prefer to impose moral rules rather than economic ones? OK.

eta there's a thread about Afghanistan if you want to discuss the specifics?

I think they're moral rules in all cases, economics is just one of the tools we're considering using to enforce them. You're proposing to stop people gorging themselves on crud by changing the price of the crud. I'm thinking about why they want crud in the first place.

The US have quite a few moral rules and they are the crud masters. Economics is just one way of looking at culture. If economics is incomplete it’s because it’s missing important decision making elements found in culture (everyone is a rational actor etc)

plodder wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:46 am

sheldrake wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:00 am

plodder wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:45 am

You'd prefer to impose moral rules rather than economic ones? OK.

eta there's a thread about Afghanistan if you want to discuss the specifics?

I think they're moral rules in all cases, economics is just one of the tools we're considering using to enforce them. You're proposing to stop people gorging themselves on crud by changing the price of the crud. I'm thinking about why they want crud in the first place.

The US have quite a few moral rules and they are the crud masters. Economics is just one way of looking at culture. If economics is incomplete it’s because it’s missing important decision making elements found in culture (everyone is a rational actor etc)

Consider Ramadan; millions of muslims living in the west voluntarily fast during the day for Ramadan. I think it would be very hard, and likely to product all kinds of accidental side effects, to use a pricing scheme to reproduce that behaviour.

Culturally induced self-restraint can be much more powerful than economics.

Oh good grief. An economist (if they were going for completism) would have to try and factor that in - perhaps the infinite cost of going to hell, for example. This is why economics is incomplete, but it's also why economists are constantly expanding the range of things they price (Ecosystem services are now mainstream for example).

Sociologists would have a different perspective, as would boring armchair commentators who prefer not to use formal theory or evidence.

plodder wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:34 am

Oh good grief. An economist (if they were going for completism) would have to try and factor that in - perhaps the infinite cost of going to hell, for example. This is why economics is incomplete, but it's also why economists are constantly expanding the range of things they price (Ecosystem services are now mainstream for example).

Sociologists would have a different perspective, as would boring armchair commentators who prefer not to use formal theory or evidence.

Scientism is wrecking young minds; the idea that all social goods can be calculated using the statistical methods of social science (and that all existing theories fit this framework). Nope.

The followup laugh is when people espouse this whilst having an extremely limited knowledge the quasi-science they promote. Trying to analyse this with economics is a bit like trying to analyse animal behaviour entirely in terms of atomic physics.

I guess at least with economics you can come up with a measurable policy. Good luck with your moral leadership campaign. But you're right, everything is hopeless and from our middle aged perspective the kids have it all wrong.

plodder wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:54 pm

I guess at least with economics you can come up with a measurable policy.

One of the problems economics has is that we can't always get good measurements for social goods, and we certainly can't often do true controlled experiments. It's often just a political/values debate cloaked in the language of applied maths.

Good luck with your moral leadership campaign. But you're right, everything is hopeless and from our middle aged perspective the kids have it all wrong.

I don't think everything is hopeless, I just think you'll get more progress towards your goal by focussing on why people have this hunger for stuff they don't really need, and I think that needs more psychological/philosophical tools than economic ones. You've worked on people's self-esteem and helped them before, right? Have a bit more faith in humanistic approaches eh?

would a warning picture of lung cancer on a packet of fags be an economic tool or a social tool? They’re ultimately different ways of describing the same thing. Try imposing an immoral tax, for example.

plodder wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:04 pm

would a warning picture of lung cancer on a packet of fags be an economic tool or a social tool? They’re ultimately different ways of describing the same thing. Try imposing an immoral tax, for example.

I would say its a social tool (but not a very effective one in that case).

How would you describe voluntary participation in Ramadan by muslims living in western countries? Or the award of titles like ‘Sir’ to people who have done a lot of charity work?

I think these are social, but they can also be quite powerful.

congratulations for discovering social capital

plodder wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:26 pm

congratulations for discovering social capital

I can't put my finger on it, but that doesn't feel entirely sincere.

I assume you're not going to suggest a pricing intervention plan to improve the quality of music people buy ?

This has got really boring now.

OMG YOU JUST INVENTED SELF AWARENESS

zing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/xkcdComic/st ... 60/photo/1

Not sure whether fits in with MMT, and it's beyond my ken as to the implications, but this is interesting

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... bt-ceiling

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:50 pm

Not sure whether fits in with MMT, and it's beyond my ken as to the implications, but this is interesting

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... bt-ceiling

Yes, this is the most straightforward kind of quantitative easing. Just have the govt. print (or mint) physical money instead of borrow it at interest. Abraham Lincoln printed 'greenbacks' to fund the civil war instead of borrow them.

Comes with the same long term question; what's the feedback mechanism thats going to stop them doing this too much?

A well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs

sheldrake wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pm

A well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs

I'm shocked! Shocked to find that banking works to keep the rich richer!

Martin_B wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:30 am

sheldrake wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pm

A well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs

I'm shocked! Shocked to find that banking works to keep the rich richer!

Who can you vote for who would do something about it?

sheldrake wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:10 pm

Martin_B wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:30 am

sheldrake wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pm

A well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs

I'm shocked! Shocked to find that banking works to keep the rich richer!

Who can you vote for who would do something about it?

Considering where the quote was misquoted from, no-one who's going to be in any sort of power

sheldrake wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:10 pm

Martin_B wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:30 am

sheldrake wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pm

A well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs

I'm shocked! Shocked to find that banking works to keep the rich richer!

Who can you vote for who would do something about it?

The Green Party.