Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

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Martin_B
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Martin_B » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:46 am

noggins wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:50 pm
An simple grifter would have cashed out earlier. A fool in too deep would have cracked up by now. No, I think she is one of those self-deceiving bonkers psycopath bullshitters*, like L Ron Hubbard, or [alive people who can sue] They aren't liars - a liar knows the truth - reality is whatever their ego demands in the moment.


(*please enlighten me with the correct term)
Not sure of the correct term, but McKeith? Paltrow? McCarthy?
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Grumble
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Grumble » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:17 pm

Guilty on four charges, not guilty on a couple and unable to reach a verdict on a few more.
A bit churlish

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by FlammableFlower » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:33 pm

Not sure if this is freely accessible - Chemistry World write up - but it makes some interesting points. Mainly though is the issue that
‘This “fake it until you make it” hype machine does sometimes work in Silicon Valley, where people can make a big push and magically catch up at the last second, but if you try to do that with human tissues and biomolecules it doesn’t work.’ Lowe states. ‘You can’t just wave your hands and pretend that you’ve solved a problem.’
and Theranos was essentially entirely based upon that rationale and that it took whistleblowers to bring it to an end shows the levels of fraud involved.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Al Capone Junior » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:55 pm

Here's the AP link that I followed

https://apnews.com/article/elizabeth-ho ... c5734b6f24

I just can't understand how so many ppl didn't ask a lot more questions, instead taking a 19 year old who had no scientific training as being the next Steve Jobs. You'd think somebody would have asked for more than holmes' visionary ideas, insisting on evidence of at least plausibility that testing tiny quantities of blood on a single, tiny machine could reasonably replace the current lab standards of so many tests.

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bjn
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by bjn » Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:00 pm

The Guardian Science podcast has a episode of Theranos, basically stating it could never have worked

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by FlammableFlower » Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:36 pm

Yep, it was never going to work. I've still got vague involvement (founders' shares) in a company doing (IMO) interesting pathogen DNA detection on a chip stuff. The one thing in the whole process that was the biggest problem: the engineering of the microfluidic on-chip stuff. All of the chemistry and biology was dealt with years ago. The rest... oh boy. Theranos were claiming to be able to do what we'd be wrangling for years to do reliably on six potential targets but now with a suite of hundreds of targets. Yeah right.

It does turn out that plenty of people with a more scientific background did ask questions and did decline to invest, but it seems they went quietly and that side of things didn't get much in the way of headlines. Far more got taken in.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Gfamily » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:34 pm

My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:55 pm

11 years for defrauding investors.

Choose your victims wisely.
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Grumble » Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:37 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:34 pm
Sentenced
Good, but why can’t people who prey on ordinary citizens get sentences like that?
A bit churlish

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lpm
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by lpm » Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:46 pm

It's a ridiculously long sentence. America loves their prisons.
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Grumble » Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:50 pm

lpm wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:46 pm
It's a ridiculously long sentence. America loves their prisons.
If you harm rich people especially
A bit churlish

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by monkey » Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:33 am

Grumble wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:37 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:34 pm
Sentenced
Good, but why can’t people who prey on ordinary citizens get sentences like that?
The US is famous for long prison sentences and part of the Theranos fraud was providing dodgy blood tests - they affected ordinary people.

And for all types of crime, the biggest predictor of getting a longer prison sentence in the US is being poor and black, because it's the US.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by bolo » Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:39 am

11 years is a long time, but she'll be out long before 11 years, I presume.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:00 am

monkey wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:33 am
Grumble wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:37 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:34 pm
Sentenced
Good, but why can’t people who prey on ordinary citizens get sentences like that?
The US is famous for long prison sentences and part of the Theranos fraud was providing dodgy blood tests - they affected ordinary people.

And for all types of crime, the biggest predictor of getting a longer prison sentence in the US is being poor and black, because it's the US.
On the blood tests, I thought the issue was that they just sent the samples on to other labs (so results were accurate), but lied to investors et al about the provenance of said results
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by monkey » Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:11 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:00 am
monkey wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:33 am
Grumble wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:37 pm


Good, but why can’t people who prey on ordinary citizens get sentences like that?
The US is famous for long prison sentences and part of the Theranos fraud was providing dodgy blood tests - they affected ordinary people.

And for all types of crime, the biggest predictor of getting a longer prison sentence in the US is being poor and black, because it's the US.
On the blood tests, I thought the issue was that they just sent the samples on to other labs (so results were accurate), but lied to investors et al about the provenance of said results
I can't remember the details, but the doc I watched had people who were misdiagnosed because of them. I'm pretty sure teh wiki will know.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:46 am

monkey wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:11 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:00 am
monkey wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:33 am


The US is famous for long prison sentences and part of the Theranos fraud was providing dodgy blood tests - they affected ordinary people.

And for all types of crime, the biggest predictor of getting a longer prison sentence in the US is being poor and black, because it's the US.
On the blood tests, I thought the issue was that they just sent the samples on to other labs (so results were accurate), but lied to investors et al about the provenance of said results
I can't remember the details, but the doc I watched had people who were misdiagnosed because of them. I'm pretty sure teh wiki will know.
I think that’s correct.

In addition she hired a distinguished scientist and tried to force him to lie in court to protect the company. Instead he killed himself.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:05 am

Grumble wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:37 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:34 pm
Sentenced
Good, but why can’t people who prey on ordinary citizens get sentences like that?
I'm pretty sure the fake blood tests had the capacity to harm ordinary people.

I'm not in general a fan of American sentencing. On the other hand, I'm glad some tech scammers have been convicted, and hope this happens to more of them.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by temptar » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:10 am

She was cleared on the question of the blood tests. Her sentence AIUI is purely for financial related charges. Her ex apparently was not cleared, though.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:44 am

temptar wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:10 am
She was cleared on the question of the blood tests. Her sentence AIUI is purely for financial related charges. Her ex apparently was not cleared, though.
Ah, thanks for the clarification.

And even more not a fan of the sentencing, however very deliberate fraud is very deliberate fraud - it should carry (proportionate) criminal penalties. Let's hope other people who downright lied about the development status/existence of products to defraud investors get the same.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by bjn » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:48 pm

She got off lightly. According to sentencing guidelines she should have been imprisoned for far longer. White collar crims never do the time they are supposed to, not even if the amounts involved are billions and peoples’ lives are put at risk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/theranos- ... ref=scroll

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:55 pm

bjn wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:48 pm
She got off lightly. According to sentencing guidelines she should have been imprisoned for far longer. White collar crims never do the time they are supposed to, not even if the amounts involved are billions and peoples’ lives are put at risk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/theranos- ... ref=scroll
I've seen that agreement, and while I do sort of agree with it, I'd rather we corrected the disparity by not oversentencing non-white-collar criminals.

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lpm
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by lpm » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:59 pm

It was nearly a victimless crime. Big investors f.cked up and lost all their money. Happens all the time by non-fraud.

Let's reserve prison for violent crime.
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noggins
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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by noggins » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:23 pm

Hoe many customers suffered or died because the tests gave incorrect results ? Thats what she deserves time for.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by bjn » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:31 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:55 pm
bjn wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:48 pm
She got off lightly. According to sentencing guidelines she should have been imprisoned for far longer. White collar crims never do the time they are supposed to, not even if the amounts involved are billions and peoples’ lives are put at risk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/theranos- ... ref=scroll
I've seen that agreement, and while I do sort of agree with it, I'd rather we corrected the disparity by not oversentencing non-white-collar criminals.
Whether the guidelines are sane is a different issue, and I don’t think they are. That she didn’t come anywhere near what the guidelines recommended shows the bias in the system. Like rich white boy rapists getting let off lightly.

I also think large scale white collar crime, which can impact people massively even if non violent, should have significant consequences.

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Re: Theranos: trial of Elizabeth Holmes

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:38 pm

bjn wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:31 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:55 pm
bjn wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:48 pm
She got off lightly. According to sentencing guidelines she should have been imprisoned for far longer. White collar crims never do the time they are supposed to, not even if the amounts involved are billions and peoples’ lives are put at risk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/theranos- ... ref=scroll
I've seen that agreement, and while I do sort of agree with it, I'd rather we corrected the disparity by not oversentencing non-white-collar criminals.
Whether the guidelines are sane is a different issue, and I don’t think they are. That she didn’t come anywhere near what the guidelines recommended shows the bias in the system. Like rich white boy rapists getting let off lightly.

I also think large scale white collar crime, which can impact people massively even if non violent, should have significant consequences.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but we do need to think quite seriously about the use of decade+ jail sentences for non-violent crimes.

And yes, she certainly got away with it lightly compared to the guidelines. If I got to be anyone facing sentencing in the USA, I'd want to be a wealthy white woman.

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