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Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:11 pm
by jimbob
Interesting article in the Harvard Business Review
https://hbr.org/2013/08/why-do-so-many-incompetent-men
Posted by a friend on Facebook, with the following
Help me out here. I’m trying to think of incompetent men who have become leaders to substantiate this argument. Can’t think of any. Examples please.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:33 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
Rich people can reach positions of leadership based solely on the criterion that they're rich.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:23 pm
by dyqik
jimbob wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:11 pm
Posted by a friend on Facebook, with the following
Help me out here. I’m trying to think of incompetent men who have become leaders to substantiate this argument. Can’t think of any. Examples please.
"The paper holds their folded faces to the floor, and every day the paper boy brings more."
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:08 pm
by Woodchopper
I agree with that article. I'll just add that the over confident incompetent narcissists seem to desperately want positions of authority in order to validate their delusions of grandeur. Whereas the the competent people are often reluctant take on leadership roles due to how much extra work would be needed to do it well (which the narcissists don't care about, as they aren't interested in actually doing the job well).
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:11 pm
by Woodchopper
Here's a very interesting podcast on Rob Ford, the incompetent narcissist who got to be mayor of Toronto by lying a lot and telling people what they wanted to hear (and then being caught smoking crack).
https://www.680news.com/2019/10/15/grav ... -rob-ford/
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:31 pm
by Martin Y
I think there is also an element of its being important to have a decisive leader.
Ideally have someone in charge who can make clever decisions, but their being clever is not necessarily so important as their ability to make decisions. You can have a dim narcissist or psychopath in charge with clever advisors who aren't themselves psychologically equipped to cope with the stress of making hard decisions (like sacking a whole lot of people) and that can work just as well as having a genius in charge. They do say that psychopaths are overrepresented in high management positions and you can see why - they don't suffer any distress at making hard business decisions which affect other people.
The greatest risk might be that you get someone just a bit too dim and so lacking in self-doubt that he just goes with his gut instincts as he can't understand the strategies his smart advisors are explaining.
Oh boy. That rings a bell.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:48 pm
by Woodchopper
Martin Y wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:31 pm
I think there is also an element of its being important to have a decisive leader.
Ideally have someone in charge who can make clever decisions, but their being clever is not necessarily so important as their ability to make decisions. You can have a dim narcissist or psychopath in charge with clever advisors who aren't themselves psychologically equipped to cope with the stress of making hard decisions (like sacking a whole lot of people) and that can work just as well as having a genius in charge. They do say that psychopaths are overrepresented in high management positions and you can see why - they don't suffer any distress at making hard business decisions which affect other people.
The greatest risk might be that you get someone just a bit too dim and so lacking in self-doubt that he just goes with his gut instincts as he can't understand the strategies his smart advisors are explaining.
Oh boy. That rings a bell.
Yes. For your strategy to work the narcissist needs to have enough self awareness to realize that his advisers are much more intelligent, and he should do what they say. But narcissists aren't usually that self aware.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:51 pm
by Woodchopper
Martin Y wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:31 pm
I think there is also an element of its being important to have a decisive leader.
I think that's part of it. People assume that someone who is very confident in their own abilities will be decisive.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:00 pm
by rockdoctor
I think the analysis misses an obvious factor that may be even more significant; size (mainly height, but also strength and bulk).
Humans are just gussied-up monkeys and our brains work at various levels. I think there is a deep instinct to treat bigger, stronger people as leaders.
I have been in industry for 27 years and I noticed early on that the majority of managers were tall. I am not.
It must be a combination of child-memory of daddy and wanting to follow someone who can protect you.
I wonder if women leaders are taller than the average woman, or is there another aspect which is more valued?
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:15 pm
by Gfamily
One of the Cautionary Tales podcasts I listened to this week pointed out that the last time the shorter US presidential candidate won was mumble decades ago.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:59 pm
by Martin Y
Gfamily wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:15 pm
One of the
Cautionary Tales podcasts I listened to this week pointed out that the last time the shorter US presidential candidate won was mumble decades ago.
Carter. It was an interesting observation.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:32 pm
by Pucksoppet
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:45 pm
by discovolante
There are incompetent and unpleasant women, but they have to work harder to wield power.
Theresa May put a lot of time and effort into getting to a position where she could demonise migrants, David Cameron blagged his way in and Boris Johnson used a cunning combination of blagging, weaseling and thuggery.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:10 pm
by Pucksoppet
discovolante wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:45 pm
There are incompetent and unpleasant women, but they have to work harder to wield power.
Theresa May put a lot of time and effort into getting to a position where she could demonise migrants, David Cameron blagged his way in and Boris Johnson used a cunning combination of blagging, weaseling and thuggery.
I think Theresa May demonstrated the
Peter Principle quite well.She was, apparently, not an unmitigated success at the Home Office, and then got promoted again...
Her career until becoming Home Secretary required both diligence and intelligence, but I think it fell apart when she was required to make policy rather than implement or influence somebody else's policy. Being the monarch of your local hill is a lot harder than it appears, and the skills of being a good subordinate do not translate into the skills of being a good leader.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:33 pm
by Woodchopper
I think there is an option c). Incompetent women are far less likely to believe that they are the most competent in the organization.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:52 pm
by discovolante
Pucksoppet wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:10 pm
discovolante wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:45 pm
There are incompetent and unpleasant women, but they have to work harder to wield power.
Theresa May put a lot of time and effort into getting to a position where she could demonise migrants, David Cameron blagged his way in and Boris Johnson used a cunning combination of blagging, weaseling and thuggery.
I think Theresa May demonstrated the
Peter Principle quite well.She was, apparently, not an unmitigated success at the Home Office, and then got promoted again...
Her career until becoming Home Secretary required both diligence and intelligence, but I think it fell apart when she was required to make policy rather than implement or influence somebody else's policy. Being the monarch of your local hill is a lot harder than it appears, and the skills of being a good subordinate do not translate into the skills of being a good leader.
And yet Boris Johnson absolutely failed as Foreign Secretary but still became Prime Minister.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:33 pm
by Martin_B
Gfamily wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:15 pm
One of the
Cautionary Tales podcasts I listened to this week pointed out that the last time the shorter US presidential candidate won was mumble decades ago.
Not really. Martin Y mentioned Carter, and he was shorter than Gerald Ford, but certainly wasn't the last shorter candidate to win.
There have been three wins by the shorter candidate since Carter.
Dubya was shorter than his opponent on both occasions (significantly shorter than John Kerry) and Obama was shorter than Mitt Romney.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:56 pm
by Gfamily
Martin_B wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:33 pm
Gfamily wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:15 pm
One of the
Cautionary Tales podcasts I listened to this week pointed out that the last time the shorter US presidential candidate won was mumble decades ago.
Not really. Martin Y mentioned Carter, and he was shorter than Gerald Ford, but certainly wasn't the last shorter candidate to win.
There have been three wins by the shorter candidate since Carter.
Dubya was shorter than his opponent on both occasions (significantly shorter than John Kerry) and Obama was shorter than Mitt Romney.
You and your facts...
I shall have to re-listen and send a sternly written note if it was mistaken.
Of course, 'mumble' is an inderterminate value
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:33 pm
by Pucksoppet
discovolante wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:52 pm
Pucksoppet wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:10 pm
discovolante wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:45 pm
There are incompetent and unpleasant women, but they have to work harder to wield power.
Theresa May put a lot of time and effort into getting to a position where she could demonise migrants, David Cameron blagged his way in and Boris Johnson used a cunning combination of blagging, weaseling and thuggery.
I think Theresa May demonstrated the
Peter Principle quite well.She was, apparently, not an unmitigated success at the Home Office, and then got promoted again...
Her career until becoming Home Secretary required both diligence and intelligence, but I think it fell apart when she was required to make policy rather than implement or influence somebody else's policy. Being the monarch of your local hill is a lot harder than it appears, and the skills of being a good subordinate do not translate into the skills of being a good leader.
And yet Boris Johnson absolutely failed as Foreign Secretary but still became Prime Minister.
Well, I think there were special circumstances in both appointments...in both cases, I think the more competent members of the Conservative and Unionist Party stepped smartly backwards, leaving the field open to those unassailed by self-doubt. Letting someone else be the fall-guy for a truly enormous catastrophe can be a good survival strategy.
And ignoring Rome burning, a interesting question is who the next leader of the C&UP will be. Gove? Patel? Or Rees-Mogg?
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:48 am
by Martin_B
Gfamily wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:56 pm
Martin_B wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:33 pm
Gfamily wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:15 pm
One of the
Cautionary Tales podcasts I listened to this week pointed out that the last time the shorter US presidential candidate won was mumble decades ago.
Not really. Martin Y mentioned Carter, and he was shorter than Gerald Ford, but certainly wasn't the last shorter candidate to win.
There have been three wins by the shorter candidate since Carter.
Dubya was shorter than his opponent on both occasions (significantly shorter than John Kerry) and Obama was shorter than Mitt Romney.
You and your facts...
I shall have to re-listen and send a sternly written note if it was mistaken.
Of course, 'mumble' is an inderterminate value
It's always possible that Wikipedia is wrong. I mean, I know it's a long-shot, but it's been known to happen!
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:29 am
by Martin Y
Pucksoppet wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:32 pm
Because either:
(a) incompetent women have not been given the chance yet, due to discrimination; or
(b) there are no incompetent women.
It's not a contest which will ever be won by the type of person who waits to be "given the chance". They will always be beaten to the job by those who do not wait but simply grab by any means they can devise.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:33 am
by Martin Y
Meantime I am agog to learn whether Tim Harford was wrong on Cautionary Tales as I'm pretty sure he claimed Carter/Ford was the last time the shorter candidate became president.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:22 pm
by Woodchopper
Tim Harford cites this study in the podcast episode notes:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
The abstract states that:
Candidates that were taller than their opponents received more popular votes, although they were not significantly more likely to win the actual election. Taller presidents were also more likely to be reelected. In addition, presidents were, on average, much taller than men from the same birth cohort.
The popular vote issue seems important, as that means that Gore beat Bush.
Also, the article was published in 2012, so presumably they didn't have data on Obama versus Romney (November 2012).
Looking at the above mentioned Wiki page, it looks like the height advantage is a 20th century thing. That could be a consequence of mass visual media - cinema newsreels and then TV - which made the candidate's visual appearance more important than in the 19th Century era of newsprint.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:05 pm
by Martin Y
I just re-listened to the segment of his podcast and my impression was wrong. It says throughout that the tall candidate is more likely to win. He lists tall victors and the smaller men they beat, then gives Carter/Ford as an example of when it occasionally goes the other way, but does not claim that this was the last time it happened. I really should concentrate less on my driving and more on what Tim actually says.
Re: Why are there so many incompetent male leaders
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:44 pm
by noggins
I think: each promotion is a gamble. Top leadership means youve rolled the dice luckily / well several times.
The biases against women, while not appearing so great at each roll, compound over time.