Weights and measures

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monkey
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by monkey » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:37 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:09 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:07 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:54 pm

I never heard of it, but now it's going to bug me even more than US/Imperial pints being different does, because it suggests they aren't.
US and U.K. fl.oz are different too.
And they do their cooking weights in cups, whatever they are.
Cups are volumes.

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Brightonian » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:53 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:09 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:07 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:54 pm

I never heard of it, but now it's going to bug me even more than US/Imperial pints being different does, because it suggests they aren't.
US and U.K. fl.oz are different too.
And they do their cooking weights in cups, whatever they are.
And US and UK cups are different too.

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by dyqik » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:48 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:09 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:07 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:54 pm

I never heard of it, but now it's going to bug me even more than US/Imperial pints being different does, because it suggests they aren't.
US and U.K. fl.oz are different too.
And they do their cooking weights in cups, whatever they are.
Cups are volume measures. 1 cup = half a pint, or 16 tablespoons.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:04 pm

Yeah but it's still silly, e.g. "a cup of diced onion" depends on how finely I dice it.

Although in that particular case I generally use onions in integer quantities so as not to stink the fridge out. (That's what the unpasteurised sheep cheese is for.)
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by dyqik » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:17 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:04 pm
Yeah but it's still silly, e.g. "a cup of diced onion" depends on how finely I dice it.

Although in that particular case I generally use onions in integer quantities so as not to stink the fridge out. (That's what the unpasteurised sheep cheese is for.)
Cups are a perfectly good measure for diced onions. There's no recipe that requires better accuracy than that, because you can't dice onions that accurately, and that affects the recipe even if you do it by weight.

It's flour, sugar and salt that cause more problems with volume measurements.

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:24 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:17 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:04 pm
Yeah but it's still silly, e.g. "a cup of diced onion" depends on how finely I dice it.

Although in that particular case I generally use onions in integer quantities so as not to stink the fridge out. (That's what the unpasteurised sheep cheese is for.)
Cups are a perfectly good measure for diced onions.
Easy for you to say. I've only got a UK passport, so I'm still contractually bound to buy them by the pint.
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by shpalman » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:52 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:04 pm
Yeah but it's still silly, e.g. "a cup of diced onion" depends on how finely I dice it.

Although in that particular case I generally use onions in integer quantities so as not to stink the fridge out. (That's what the unpasteurised sheep cheese is for.)
I dice the whole onion but any I don't need goes in the freezer.

So I use onions in half-integer amounts.
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monkey
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by monkey » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:58 pm

I think I read somewhere that when cups were first used they weren't defined, but they just gave the ratio of the ingredients. So 2 cups of X and 3 of Y, would be the same as 2 parts X, 3 parts Y. As long as you didn't need much accuracy and used the same cup for the ingredients, you'd end up with something edible, but maybe a different amount of it to everyone else.

I have no idea how true that is.

I buy my onions pre chopped and frozen, because I am lazy.

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by dyqik » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:22 pm

monkey wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:58 pm
I think I read somewhere that when cups were first used they weren't defined, but they just gave the ratio of the ingredients. So 2 cups of X and 3 of Y, would be the same as 2 parts X, 3 parts Y. As long as you didn't need much accuracy and used the same cup for the ingredients, you'd end up with something edible, but maybe a different amount of it to everyone else.

I have no idea how true that is.

I buy my onions pre chopped and frozen, because I am lazy.
It's certainly true enough, but there's also the fact that balance scales and weights were fairly expensive and delicate, and reasonably standard cups weren't.

And you can drink out of them.

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Martin_B » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:44 am

dyqik wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:01 pm
It's important to note that US standard units aren't the same as UK imperial measures, so there's no real advantage for trade with the US for anything requiring precision.

And then there's the measures with the same name that aren't even close. Remember, "a pint's a pound the world round" is a common saying in the US.
To the rest of the world (or at least those parts which use it) a pint is 568 ml. Although asking for a pint in France will get you a drink measured at 500 ml (which I've tried asking for as a demi-litre and got blank looks!)

But a US pint isn't even a pound. A US pint is 473 ml, while a pound is 454 g. For a pint to be a pound the liquid being measured has to be 960 kg/m3. For this to be water (which is a reasonable thing to expect) the water would have to be at ~95°C. At room temperature (20°C) water has a density of 998 kg/m3, so a pint is 1.04 pounds.

It's always possible that the US saying references some other liquid, but beer has a density at room temperature of 1040-1070 kg/m3 (depends on the alcohol content) and milk is 1025-1035 kg/m3 (depending on fat content). Gasoline has a density of 720-780 kg/m3, kerosene 780-830 and diesel 830-850 kg/m3.
You can get a specific grade of very heavy fuel oil which has a density of ~960 kg/m3 at room temperature, but I'm not sure why a common US saying should reference a fairly recently specified, highly specific fuel oil.
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by dyqik » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:02 am

Martin_B wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:44 am
dyqik wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:01 pm
It's important to note that US standard units aren't the same as UK imperial measures, so there's no real advantage for trade with the US for anything requiring precision.

And then there's the measures with the same name that aren't even close. Remember, "a pint's a pound the world round" is a common saying in the US.
To the rest of the world (or at least those parts which use it) a pint is 568 ml. Although asking for a pint in France will get you a drink measured at 500 ml (which I've tried asking for as a demi-litre and got blank looks!)

But a US pint isn't even a pound. A US pint is 473 ml, while a pound is 454 g. For a pint to be a pound the liquid being measured has to be 960 kg/m3. For this to be water (which is a reasonable thing to expect) the water would have to be at ~95°C. At room temperature (20°C) water has a density of 998 kg/m3, so a pint is 1.04 pounds.

It's always possible that the US saying references some other liquid, but beer has a density at room temperature of 1040-1070 kg/m3 (depends on the alcohol content) and milk is 1025-1035 kg/m3 (depending on fat content). Gasoline has a density of 720-780 kg/m3, kerosene 780-830 and diesel 830-850 kg/m3.
You can get a specific grade of very heavy fuel oil which has a density of ~960 kg/m3 at room temperature, but I'm not sure why a common US saying should reference a fairly recently specified, highly specific fuel oil.
It's not supposed to be that accurate.

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Grumble » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:59 am

I think US pints are based on wine. U.K. pints are based on beer.
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by plodder » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:02 am

yeah but what size onion????!!!??

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by monkey » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:54 pm

Grumble wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:59 am
I think US pints are based on wine. U.K. pints are based on beer.
Who drinks a pint of wine?

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Lew Dolby » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:56 pm

Me, me, sir, me, me !!! <sits down and lowers hand>

Seriously, wine in Austria is sold in bars in 1/8 and 1/4 litre pots. 1/4 litre is nearly a 1/2 pint so nNot difficult to get to a pint.
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by basementer » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:01 pm

monkey wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:54 pm
Grumble wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:59 am
I think US pints are based on wine. U.K. pints are based on beer.
Who drinks a pint of wine?
It's mentioned in one or more of Hermann Hesse's novels.
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by nezumi » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:12 pm

plodder wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:02 am
yeah but what size onion????!!!??
To me this is the crux of the issue. Also, just to settle my unending curiousity - what kind of onion? I'm picturing white onion because obviously, but some recipes are far nicer with red onion, or even spring onions or shallots.
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by monkey » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:19 pm

basementer wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:01 pm
monkey wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:54 pm
Grumble wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:59 am
I think US pints are based on wine. U.K. pints are based on beer.
Who drinks a pint of wine?
It's mentioned in one or more of Hermann Hesse's novels.
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by plodder » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:45 pm

nezumi wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:12 pm
plodder wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:02 am
yeah but what size onion????!!!??
To me this is the crux of the issue. Also, just to settle my unending curiousity - what kind of onion? I'm picturing white onion because obviously, but some recipes are far nicer with red onion, or even spring onions or shallots.
Well exactly. No point in doing the Bill of Quantities if the Spec hasn’t been agreed. This will delay pricing and risks the mobilisation date slipping, frankly.

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Cardinal Fang » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:33 pm

Imperial measurements have never been outlawed. They just have to be shown alongside metric.

It's just another chapter in the fake culture wars the Tories keep trying to start, presumably in the hopes of dragging the UK back to the 1950s

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Trinucleus » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:51 pm

monkey wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:54 pm
Grumble wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:59 am
I think US pints are based on wine. U.K. pints are based on beer.
Who drinks a pint of wine?
My wife did once, when taken on a night out in Manchests Canal Street by my son. Paper there it's a perfectly acceptable measure.

She was very sick

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Trinucleus » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:52 pm

(double post)

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:57 pm

I did once. Bought a bottle of rose on a night out in Wetherspoons when I was a newly minted 18 year old. Nobody wanted to join me, so when they asked how many glasses I said "one, and might as well make it a pint".

I was fine btw.

And yeah here they do carafes in denominations like 0,25 or 0,5 or 1 litre. But you'd obviously decant that into a smaller glass, so even if you drink ≥568 ml of wine in not sure I'd consider it "drinking a pint of wine" iyswim.
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Re: Weights and measures

Post by bjn » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:10 pm

I used to drink pints of G&T when in crowded bars that took forever to get served. I’d buy two doubles and ask for an empty pint glass, save me hassle going to the bar again. I originally asked for a quadruple, but was refused. This was the work around.

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Re: Weights and measures

Post by dyqik » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:00 pm

monkey wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:54 pm
Grumble wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:59 am
I think US pints are based on wine. U.K. pints are based on beer.
Who drinks a pint of wine?
Wait until you find out that it's the adoption of the wine gallon vs the beer gallon that's to blame here.

(I measure wine in gallons)

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