Starlink ruining the night sky

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Gfamily
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gfamily » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:54 pm

bolo wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:31 pm
According to one of dyqik's colleagues who gave a talk at my workplace last week, if Starlink is fully built out, on a dark night, the naked eye will see more Starlink satellites than stars.
I've seen it claimed that when at their operating altitude they'll mostly they'll be no more than 5th magnitude, so not particularly noticeable to the naked eye, except under very rural skies
However, I don't recall who was making that claim.
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by RandomElement » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:08 pm

According to this https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/11/14/s ... ght-skies/ there are currently between +4 and +7 so around the limits of the human eye, but with so many in rural areas they are going to be noticeable.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:01 am

So we have to escape the huge tracts of light pollution to see them? Sounds like it's worth a trip out into the darkness.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by username » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:25 am

Some stuff Musk said a few months ago;
https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-s ... -musk.html
The half-truths, repeated, authenticated themselves.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by darth tater » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:45 pm

What is the point of starlink, please ?
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gfamily » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:55 pm

darth tater wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:45 pm
What is the point of starlink, please ?
Internet for people who aren't locally connected by cables to the internet, or close to 3,4,5 G masts
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by darth tater » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:37 pm

Wouldn't cables be cheaper?
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by bolo » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:43 pm

darth tater wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:37 pm
Wouldn't cables be cheaper?
Not in remote locations. Elsewhere, give it 10 years to see whether Starlink is still in business, and then you'll have your answer.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by username » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:48 am

The equivalent question for telephony would have been someone asking in 1990 what the point of cellphones was. Now we see the number of landlines dropping as people shift to mobile phones.
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:36 am

In the US Hughes Net caters to the bucolic set. If they want anything more than dial-up the choices are limited. Hughes offers "HIGH SPEED" internet, meaning up to 40 mps. :roll:

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by GeenDienst » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:53 pm

username wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:48 am
... the point of cellphones ....
Gambling, like everything else.
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by username » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:15 pm

GeenDienst wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:53 pm
username wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:48 am
... the point of cellphones ....
Gambling, like everything else.
Heh, well the contemporaneous joke was that 3g stood for games, girls and gambling :)

Aiui there are quite a few examples of countries that have more or less skipped the landline step in telephony and gone straight (ish) to cell as wiring in many places was uneconomic.
The half-truths, repeated, authenticated themselves.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gfamily » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:21 pm

username wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:15 pm
GeenDienst wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:53 pm
username wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:48 am
... the point of cellphones ....
Gambling, like everything else.
Heh, well the contemporaneous joke was that 3g stood for games, girls and gambling :)

Aiui there are quite a few examples of countries that have more or less skipped the landline step in telephony and gone straight (ish) to cell as wiring in many places was uneconomic.
One of the advantages being that messaging could replace cash as a means of exchange
https://www.cnbc.com/2013/11/11/cashles ... money.html
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by JQH » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:54 pm

username wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:15 pm
GeenDienst wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:53 pm
username wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:48 am
... the point of cellphones ....
Gambling, like everything else.
Heh, well the contemporaneous joke was that 3g stood for games, girls and gambling :)

Aiui there are quite a few examples of countries that have more or less skipped the landline step in telephony and gone straight (ish) to cell as wiring in many places was uneconomic.
South African townships have largely gone down that route.
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:55 pm

JQH wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:54 pm
username wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:15 pm
Aiui there are quite a few examples of countries that have more or less skipped the landline step in telephony and gone straight (ish) to cell as wiring in many places was uneconomic.
South African townships have largely gone down that route.
Yes, it's a very common pattern:
Pew Research wrote:Many Own Cell Phones, Few Have Landlines
Beyond smartphone ownership, cell phone ownership more broadly is very common, with a median of 84% in emerging and developing nations owning some type of cell phone. In eight emerging and developing countries, about nine-in-ten or more own mobile phones, comparable to the 90% of Americans with cell phones. Unlike other technologies, people in sub-Saharan African nations, including Nigeria, Senegal and Ghana, use mobile phones at similar rates to the rest of the emerging and developing world. Pakistan is the only country surveyed where less than half (47%) have a mobile phone.

Few in Africa, Asia Have Landlines
While cell phone ownership has increased drastically over the past decade, particularly in Africa, landline connections have remained relatively low – likely due to the lack of infrastructure required for reliable connections. Across the 32 countries surveyed, a median of just 19% say they have a working landline connection in their home, including as few as 1% in Ghana, Nigeria, Uganda and Bangladesh. Instead of waiting for landline access, many in emerging and developing nations have bypassed fixed phone lines in favor of mobile technology.
Nevertheless, most people worldwide have no internet, even in places where the technology to connect doesn't exist. According to the Pew report, the barriers are mainly non-technological:
Explaining Internet Usage

To further explore the relationship between demographics, English language ability and internet usage, we used a statistical technique called multivariate regression, which allowed us to test the individual impact of a number of factors on internet usage while holding other variables constant (see Appendix A for details). Overall, we find that computer ownership, age, English language ability and education have the biggest impact on whether or not someone uses the internet.

Those who own computers, those who can speak or read some English, and those with a secondary education or higher are considerably more likely to use the internet. In addition to these factors, having a higher income, being male and being employed have a significant, positive impact on internet use, though to a lesser degree.

Age also has a significant influence on internet use, controlling for other demographics. In emerging and developing markets, older people are significantly less likely than their younger counterparts to engage in online activity.
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by username » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:16 pm

Oneweb is fairly explicit about targeting Africa as an internet market. I don't know how fast and how deep Starlink will get there, the two are in direct competition, but I'm happy that it's happening.

Smart phone use in Africa and the middle east is growing rapidly, many African nations have double or triple the numbers in the last four or five years, this tech as well as satellite constellations will no doubt revolutionise internet availability there. Given the African internet backbone is still under construction there's a reasonable chance a satellite constellation will be a big boon to the continent and circumvent some of the getting online issues.

All in all I can't escape the pulling the ladder up feeling wrt the oh noes, the sky will have new points of light in it attitude. No doubt someone might be able to change my pov.
The half-truths, repeated, authenticated themselves.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by GeenDienst » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:29 pm

There's a lot of research into telehealth going on in developing nations, incluing in Africa, exploiting the big rise in moby usage.
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:05 pm

I think Industrial Age light pollution ruined more night skies than this thing will.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gfamily » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:34 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:05 pm
I think Industrial Age light pollution ruined more night skies than this thing will.
True, but the difference is that while there are still places where light pollution is not an issue, the sheer number of tracks of these satellites will be pervasive.

It's a bit like scribbling over every work of art
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:23 pm

Perseids should be prosecuted as well?

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gfamily » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:46 pm

Whatever1
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by TimW » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:46 am

What sort of hardware do you need on the ground to connect?

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by Gfamily » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:51 am

TimW wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:46 am
What sort of hardware do you need on the ground to connect?
I can't remember if I posted a link, but it's a flat panel aerial (as I recall about 30cm square) that is fairly omnidirectional.
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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by bolo » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:20 pm

Yes, flat phased array. Maybe a little more than 30cm? Not sure. But in any case, not a phone.

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Re: Starlink ruining the night sky

Post by GeenDienst » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:07 pm

Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.

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