There is no advice that will keep women safe if men don't want us to be.[The details of Sabina's last hours] only confirm what women have always known: that these “safety rules” are false assurances that society gives us to shuck off responsibility for what happens to us at the hands of the insidious misogyny it allows to run rampant. Violent men are an accepted part of our day-to-day existence. Women and girls are the ones who have to concede and make themselves smaller for a stake in public life...
Yet it continues to tell us women what to do: go out in pairs (Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman did that). Trust authority figures (Sarah Everard did that). Don’t walk, get a taxi (the victims of John Worboys did that). Walk in well-lit areas (every woman and girl who has ever been catcalled on the way to work or school knows daylight is no deterrent for a man intent on making you feel degraded and humiliated for his own pleasure).
Through the eyes of a rapist
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
This piece in the Independent is excellent, and highlights the limitations of this sort of advice much more succinctly than I could ever hope to achieve.
it's okay to say "I don't know"
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
The "advice" article reminds me of an incident back in the 90s, when a woman I was walking several yards behind, up the stairs of a quiet commuter railway station around about 9pm, deliberately let me see that she was carrying a pepper spray. I had followed her up the stairs at that railway station on a couple of previous occasions. Doubtless the tendency for repeat behaviour in commuting meant that this circumstance was predisposed to repeat itself. We both tended to go home frequently when the train was emptiest, at the dead time between workers and theatre-goers.
Plainly she was frightened by the circumstance. After I saw that, I tended to hang further back if I saw her disembark from the same train, to put either a person, if available, or some greater distance between us.
My friend José from Santiago de Chile got pickpocketed in Paris. He didn't think to have his "eye" out to look for risky situations like he would at home in Santiago. After all, crime is a lot lower in western Europe, in some sort of overall sense, than back in Santiago. Even though Chile is the lowest crime country and least corrupt in South America, nevertheless Santiago is a city where everyone, residents included, knows you have to be very careful. Whereas I locked my bicycle up in a small town in Chile, to go into a shop, and a passer-by berated me for insulting their honesty.
When I was last in Paris with my wife, in fact to see our friend from Chile as he still likes to visit Paris despite his previous experience, my wife easily fell for the first pickpocket distractor we encountered. She was very angry and unbelieving when I told her sharply to "walk away from the pickpocket distractor". I had to plead several times with her sefore she would walk away. Though since I was watching her back nothing could happen. Then José reminded her just how he had been pickpocketed with the assistance of a distractor on his previous visit to Paris. They are skilled at distracting you.
My brother - who is tall and strong - also got pickpocketed just once, by a horde of little girls in Milan in the Piazza del Duomo. They took his wallet out from his inside jacket pocket as he watched. Being acculturated not to strike out at little girls, he felt he could do nothing about it.
Plainly she was frightened by the circumstance. After I saw that, I tended to hang further back if I saw her disembark from the same train, to put either a person, if available, or some greater distance between us.
The only time I have ever been pickpocketed was on the tram from Cais do Sodre to Belém in Lisbon, which connects two of Lisbon's tourist hotspots. I think probably nearly every fresh tourist to Lisbon does that tram trip. I've been to Portugal many times, though generally to Porto and the countryside, rather than Lisbon. I think of it as a very safe country, and I didn't think to look after my wallet more carefully than I would in London. The tram was very crowded, and, stupidly, you have to go to the ticket machine on the tram itself to pay. Clearly these pickpockets stood around the ticket machine to crowd it and so you thought the natural press of people was why there was contact between bodies.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:11 amLots of big cities, including London and Lisbon, have signs up warning about pickpockets in hotspot areas (which of course are the least likely areas to be physically attacked).
My friend José from Santiago de Chile got pickpocketed in Paris. He didn't think to have his "eye" out to look for risky situations like he would at home in Santiago. After all, crime is a lot lower in western Europe, in some sort of overall sense, than back in Santiago. Even though Chile is the lowest crime country and least corrupt in South America, nevertheless Santiago is a city where everyone, residents included, knows you have to be very careful. Whereas I locked my bicycle up in a small town in Chile, to go into a shop, and a passer-by berated me for insulting their honesty.
When I was last in Paris with my wife, in fact to see our friend from Chile as he still likes to visit Paris despite his previous experience, my wife easily fell for the first pickpocket distractor we encountered. She was very angry and unbelieving when I told her sharply to "walk away from the pickpocket distractor". I had to plead several times with her sefore she would walk away. Though since I was watching her back nothing could happen. Then José reminded her just how he had been pickpocketed with the assistance of a distractor on his previous visit to Paris. They are skilled at distracting you.
My brother - who is tall and strong - also got pickpocketed just once, by a horde of little girls in Milan in the Piazza del Duomo. They took his wallet out from his inside jacket pocket as he watched. Being acculturated not to strike out at little girls, he felt he could do nothing about it.
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
The only time I've experienced something vaguely approaching assault, I got smacked across the face with no warning. But it wasn't a complete stranger, maybe that makes a difference.snoozeofreason wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:43 am...or it could be that humans are such deeply social animals that even the worst of us doesn't have the bad manners to just walk up to someone and punch them without so much as saying hello.
(I was walking home late at night as a teenager, passed two girls from school, no-one else about. Older one probably egged the younger one on to hit me. It was over before I could react,and I never told anyone. No mark,and it'd be my word against the two of them so I figured no point. And once I got over being angry, I felt sorry for her. She was clearly miserable and looking to vent that on someone else.)
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
Unfortunately this is true. I try, but:
I have unwittingly done this in the past myself, simply walking along a street, minding my own business, and realised that I have been following a woman who is getting nervous by my presence. I'm a biggish bloke, so I suppose I could be quite intimidating (I'm a p.ssy cat, really) but I've had to cross the street, and/or walk a longer way to my destination to try and alleviate the woman's fears, when realistically she'd have been safer if I walked alongside her chatting.IvanV wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:42 pmThe "advice" article reminds me of an incident back in the 90s, when a woman I was walking several yards behind, up the stairs of a quiet commuter railway station around about 9pm, deliberately let me see that she was carrying a pepper spray. I had followed her up the stairs at that railway station on a couple of previous occasions. Doubtless the tendency for repeat behaviour in commuting meant that this circumstance was predisposed to repeat itself. We both tended to go home frequently when the train was emptiest, at the dead time between workers and theatre-goers.
Plainly she was frightened by the circumstance. After I saw that, I tended to hang further back if I saw her disembark from the same train, to put either a person, if available, or some greater distance between us.
A question for the females on the site; what should I do in this instance? I fear that trying to engage the woman in conversation may be mistaken by her for the instigation of the assault, but that dropping back further and/or walking on the other side of the street may make me seem more creepy and stalker-ish.
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
Tough one. Personally I'd see dropping back and crossing the street as being contra-indicative of following me so I'd relax a bit. I definitely would not try to engage her in conversation - it's a red flag!Martin_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:21 am
A question for the females on the site; what should I do in this instance? I fear that trying to engage the woman in conversation may be mistaken by her for the instigation of the assault, but that dropping back further and/or walking on the other side of the street may make me seem more creepy and stalker-ish.
Go with option 1.
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
Option 1 in this case being to find an alternative, longer route to my destination?nezumi wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:44 amTough one. Personally I'd see dropping back and crossing the street as being contra-indicative of following me so I'd relax a bit. I definitely would not try to engage her in conversation - it's a red flag!Martin_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:21 am
A question for the females on the site; what should I do in this instance? I fear that trying to engage the woman in conversation may be mistaken by her for the instigation of the assault, but that dropping back further and/or walking on the other side of the street may make me seem more creepy and stalker-ish.
Go with option 1.
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
Sorry. What I meant was use your same route but drop back and cross the street.Martin_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:55 amOption 1 in this case being to find an alternative, longer route to my destination?nezumi wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:44 amTough one. Personally I'd see dropping back and crossing the street as being contra-indicative of following me so I'd relax a bit. I definitely would not try to engage her in conversation - it's a red flag!Martin_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:21 am
A question for the females on the site; what should I do in this instance? I fear that trying to engage the woman in conversation may be mistaken by her for the instigation of the assault, but that dropping back further and/or walking on the other side of the street may make me seem more creepy and stalker-ish.
Go with option 1.
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
I definitely get creeped out when strange blokes try to talk to me, especially if we're walking in the same direction. Honestly, as annoying as it sounds, I'd suggest taking an alternative route home if one is available. Women do this all the time - I've done it - so it would be nice if the annoyance could be shared. If that's not feasible then dropping further back works. If you're leaving public transport then try to be unchivalrous and leave first - that way you're not following anyone.Martin_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:21 amUnfortunately this is true. I try, but:I have unwittingly done this in the past myself, simply walking along a street, minding my own business, and realised that I have been following a woman who is getting nervous by my presence. I'm a biggish bloke, so I suppose I could be quite intimidating (I'm a p.ssy cat, really) but I've had to cross the street, and/or walk a longer way to my destination to try and alleviate the woman's fears, when realistically she'd have been safer if I walked alongside her chatting.IvanV wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:42 pmThe "advice" article reminds me of an incident back in the 90s, when a woman I was walking several yards behind, up the stairs of a quiet commuter railway station around about 9pm, deliberately let me see that she was carrying a pepper spray. I had followed her up the stairs at that railway station on a couple of previous occasions. Doubtless the tendency for repeat behaviour in commuting meant that this circumstance was predisposed to repeat itself. We both tended to go home frequently when the train was emptiest, at the dead time between workers and theatre-goers.
Plainly she was frightened by the circumstance. After I saw that, I tended to hang further back if I saw her disembark from the same train, to put either a person, if available, or some greater distance between us.
A question for the females on the site; what should I do in this instance? I fear that trying to engage the woman in conversation may be mistaken by her for the instigation of the assault, but that dropping back further and/or walking on the other side of the street may make me seem more creepy and stalker-ish.
it's okay to say "I don't know"
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Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
God no, don't talk to her. If you don't want to take a longer route, just hang back for five minutes until she's far enough away.Martin_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:21 amUnfortunately this is true. I try, but:I have unwittingly done this in the past myself, simply walking along a street, minding my own business, and realised that I have been following a woman who is getting nervous by my presence. I'm a biggish bloke, so I suppose I could be quite intimidating (I'm a p.ssy cat, really) but I've had to cross the street, and/or walk a longer way to my destination to try and alleviate the woman's fears, when realistically she'd have been safer if I walked alongside her chatting.IvanV wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:42 pmThe "advice" article reminds me of an incident back in the 90s, when a woman I was walking several yards behind, up the stairs of a quiet commuter railway station around about 9pm, deliberately let me see that she was carrying a pepper spray. I had followed her up the stairs at that railway station on a couple of previous occasions. Doubtless the tendency for repeat behaviour in commuting meant that this circumstance was predisposed to repeat itself. We both tended to go home frequently when the train was emptiest, at the dead time between workers and theatre-goers.
Plainly she was frightened by the circumstance. After I saw that, I tended to hang further back if I saw her disembark from the same train, to put either a person, if available, or some greater distance between us.
A question for the females on the site; what should I do in this instance? I fear that trying to engage the woman in conversation may be mistaken by her for the instigation of the assault, but that dropping back further and/or walking on the other side of the street may make me seem more creepy and stalker-ish.
I know I've spooked women at night as they glance over their shoulder, see someone tall looming up behind them and assume it's a man. It's easier for me because I can say something so they know I'm female.
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
That definitely feels wrong, as someone brought up to always open doors, let women go first, etc.
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
See it as a different form of chivalry. I'm not saying barge past people in an effort to be first off, but if it's late at night and you're one of the last few people there then giving clear signals that this is your stop and you're getting off regardless of what anyone else is doing is a good way of indicating you're not following someone home.
it's okay to say "I don't know"
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Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
As a humanities grad, can I request we stop using 'chivalry'. I know meanings change but this is just WRONG.
See this https://going-medieval.com/2017/12/07/t ... is-but-ok/
Summary (yes, she is a mediaeval historian):
Can we just say 'behave like a decent human being'?
See this https://going-medieval.com/2017/12/07/t ... is-but-ok/
Summary (yes, she is a mediaeval historian):
Basically then chivalry and the chivalric code has f.ck all to do with women at all. It’s a bunch of rules about how to conduct yourself if you are a rich dude, with a horse, a lot of weapons, and time on your hands. Saying that you treat women well because of chivalry makes about as much sense as saying you treat them well because of the highway code. It’s just not a thing.
More to the point, anything slightly about women in concepts of chivalry is the same old creepy-ass courtly love stuff, and mostly is just about keeping your boner in your pants while your boss is looking.
Can we just say 'behave like a decent human being'?
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
I agree with what the others have said. A very deliberate dropping back and crossing the road would make me feel that the man concerned was not a threat and was doing his best to signal that fact. If you can go another route, then that's great too, but I personally would be happy with just the dropping back and crossing the road.Martin_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:21 am
A question for the females on the site; what should I do in this instance? I fear that trying to engage the woman in conversation may be mistaken by her for the instigation of the assault, but that dropping back further and/or walking on the other side of the street may make me seem more creepy and stalker-ish.
Definitely do not try to talk to the woman, unless you actually know her, and know her well enough to know that she will definitely know you too.
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Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
My walk home there's a stretch of road where there's no pavement on the other side so not an option crossing over.
I did have a guy once before that stretch call to me (from far enough away that I didn't feel that threatened) that he was going to overtake me, so that he'd be ahead of me when we hit the narrow stretch, so I didn't think he was following me.
Yes, okay I was a little weirded, but not as much as I probably would have been had he stayed behind me. I made sure to cross over the road to go past me then cross back before the narrow bit.
It's nice that he was aware enough of the potential of a woman feeling creeped out and to do something about it, but also sad that he was in a Catch-22 situation in that anything he did (go past me, not go past me, let me know what he was doing, not letting me know) would all have made me a bit jumpy, and that we have to be that jumpy because of the potential risks if we're not
CF
I did have a guy once before that stretch call to me (from far enough away that I didn't feel that threatened) that he was going to overtake me, so that he'd be ahead of me when we hit the narrow stretch, so I didn't think he was following me.
Yes, okay I was a little weirded, but not as much as I probably would have been had he stayed behind me. I made sure to cross over the road to go past me then cross back before the narrow bit.
It's nice that he was aware enough of the potential of a woman feeling creeped out and to do something about it, but also sad that he was in a Catch-22 situation in that anything he did (go past me, not go past me, let me know what he was doing, not letting me know) would all have made me a bit jumpy, and that we have to be that jumpy because of the potential risks if we're not
CF
Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
YupWoodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:54 amI've seen things like that before. That one and things like it are b.llsh.t.
Some women are at much greater risk of being victims others, and there is research on what factors matter. Things like hair length are not one of them.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
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Re: Through the eyes of a rapist
There's a stretch like that in my hometown, and I walk pretty fast.Cardinal Fang wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:44 pmMy walk home there's a stretch of road where there's no pavement on the other side so not an option crossing over.
I did have a guy once before that stretch call to me (from far enough away that I didn't feel that threatened) that he was going to overtake me, so that he'd be ahead of me when we hit the narrow stretch, so I didn't think he was following me.
Yes, okay I was a little weirded, but not as much as I probably would have been had he stayed behind me. I made sure to cross over the road to go past me then cross back before the narrow bit.
It's nice that he was aware enough of the potential of a woman feeling creeped out and to do something about it, but also sad that he was in a Catch-22 situation in that anything he did (go past me, not go past me, let me know what he was doing, not letting me know) would all have made me a bit jumpy, and that we have to be that jumpy because of the potential risks if we're not
CF
If it looks like I'm going to end up stuck behind a woman there I generally stop for a cigarette. Otherwise cross the road.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.