Brexit benefits

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temptar
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by temptar » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:52 pm

They are also owned by Kerry Foods.

sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:04 pm

Maybe they helped sweet-talk some commissioners. People are usually willing to be pragmatic where money is involved.

nezumi
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by nezumi » Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:11 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:26 pm
Richmond Sausages are people!
I doubt it. People would taste better.
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.

Chris Preston
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by Chris Preston » Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:19 am

There is the great free trade deal with Australia.
Here grows much rhubarb.

plodder
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:22 am

Chris Preston wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:19 am
There is the great free trade deal with Australia.
Is that the one where you sell us your carbons at a discounted rate?

sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:58 am

It is. We'll be doing emissions trading with Canada too, I think.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:53 pm

Leaving the EU means the UK can be way more ambitious about influencing the carbon market. It can regulate its finance sector independently, without worrying about making Frankfurt and Paris divest from their fossil assets too. It can independently implement a border tax on emissions in all its new trade deals. It can reform agricultural subsidies to support regenerative farming and carbon sequestration, and other ecosystem services.

The EU has been historically quite slow on climate change (especially the land-use side) (even if it's been better than most other places), and the UK was widely considered a driving force behind genuine progress. If we're going to prioritise "going back" to some past era where the UK was a positive influence on the world, please can it be that one. At least it's genuinely true, and a genuinely worthwhile cause.

Rather than a dysfunctional oligarchy ripping up regs and providing political support for as many antequated anachronistic gasbags as possible.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

plodder
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by plodder » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:47 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:53 pm
Leaving the EU means the UK can be way more ambitious about influencing the carbon market. It can regulate its finance sector independently, without worrying about making Frankfurt and Paris divest from their fossil assets too. It can independently implement a border tax on emissions in all its new trade deals. It can reform agricultural subsidies to support regenerative farming and carbon sequestration, and other ecosystem services.

The EU has been historically quite slow on climate change (especially the land-use side) (even if it's been better than most other places), and the UK was widely considered a driving force behind genuine progress. If we're going to prioritise "going back" to some past era where the UK was a positive influence on the world, please can it be that one. At least it's genuinely true, and a genuinely worthwhile cause.

Rather than a dysfunctional oligarchy ripping up regs and providing political support for as many antequated anachronistic gasbags as possible.
So in other words we are now freer to to <idealistic thing> but are more likely to do <not necessary thing>. Yeah, that’s about how I see it.

One consequence/benefit is that someone gets to fill the funny-shaped political void that used to have the EU in it.

sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:23 am

plodder wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:47 am


So in other words we are now freer to to <idealistic thing> but are more likely to do <not necessary thing>. Yeah, that’s about how I see it.

One consequence/benefit is that someone gets to fill the funny-shaped political void that used to have the EU in it.
I think you can have at least some of the idealistic things if you can make the Labour party an effective opposition again. It will be a lot of work, but it's not impossible.

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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:33 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:22 am
Chris Preston wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:19 am
There is the great free trade deal with Australia.
Is that the one where you sell us your carbons at a discounted rate?
I think we pay for them in tired, depressed cricketers.
Cinch?
Cinch!
Cinch?
Cinch?!
Cinch*
<Cinch>
-Cinch-
"Cinch"
Cinch.

sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:49 pm

This is old but a good reflection from the left of the spectrum on how to see Brexit as an opportunity instead of a problem

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... m-problems

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nekomatic
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by nekomatic » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:02 pm

No it isn’t. The ‘opportunities’ suggested in that article consist of
  • State aid for manufacturing
  • Er
  • Something unspecified but it involves artificial intelligence somehow
Dervict stanord

sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:31 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:02 pm
No it isn’t. The ‘opportunities’ suggested in that article consist of
  • State aid for manufacturing
  • Er
  • Something unspecified but it involves artificial intelligence somehow
Tell me what you don't like about state aid for manufacturing.

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Trinucleus
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by Trinucleus » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:33 pm

Given that it actually happens on EU countries, I don't think it counts as a benefit of Brexit

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nekomatic
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by nekomatic » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:46 pm

What I think about it is neither here nor there. What I think about it as a proposed opportunity of Brexit is that a) as Trinucleus says, states in the EU can and do support their manufacturing industries; b) the WTO and our various trading partners may have a view if we want to go significantly beyond the kind of support that was already possible inside the EU; c) any benefit to manufacturing has to be set against the clearly apparent newly added challenges of importing materials from and exporting products to the very large market on our doorstep; and d) I don’t trust that anything this government says about wanting to support manufacturing goes any more than soundbite deep, or will be remembered in more than half an hour’s time.

But obviously, I’m just not believing hard enough.
Dervict stanord

sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:20 pm

Trinucleus wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:33 pm
Given that it actually happens on EU countries, I don't think it counts as a benefit of Brexit
The economics editor of even the Guardian is well aware of what the EU single market state aid rules are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_aid ... ean_Union)
Measures which fall within the definition of state aid are considered unlawful unless provided under an exemption or notified by the European Commission.
We no longer need to apply for exemptions or request permission.

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Trinucleus
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by Trinucleus » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:38 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:20 pm
Trinucleus wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:33 pm
Given that it actually happens on EU countries, I don't think it counts as a benefit of Brexit
The economics editor of even the Guardian is well aware of what the EU single market state aid rules are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_aid ... ean_Union)
Measures which fall within the definition of state aid are considered unlawful unless provided under an exemption or notified by the European Commission.
We no longer need to apply for exemptions or request permission.
So the benefit is that we just don't have to get permission?

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:43 pm

Taking back control, innit.
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sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:52 pm

Trinucleus wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:38 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:20 pm
Trinucleus wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:33 pm
Given that it actually happens on EU countries, I don't think it counts as a benefit of Brexit
The economics editor of even the Guardian is well aware of what the EU single market state aid rules are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_aid ... ean_Union)
Measures which fall within the definition of state aid are considered unlawful unless provided under an exemption or notified by the European Commission.
We no longer need to apply for exemptions or request permission.
So the benefit is that we just don't have to get permission?
That could be a significant benefit. It would certainly seem like it if you asked permission and didn't get it.

temptar
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by temptar » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:17 am

Doesn't mean you get to export those state aided manufactured good elsewhere if they come under the heading of dumping though.

At least in the EU you might have a market had you got permission.

That being said, state aid is usually anethema to fiscal conservatives. You seem inconsistent here.

plodder
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:26 am

We did state aid before, and we had powers - the cosy deal with Nissan during the original Brexit negotiations, for example. The fact that we don't have to ask permission is a benefit, but I'm not sure it's going to be measurable, especially as there's an implicit suggestion that state aid is typically propping up dead wood.

eta obvs lots of talk about subsidies to support carbon reduction - but every country has this issue.

sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:54 am

I'm a bit long in the tooth to worry too much about theoretical consistency, but I agree with plodder's angle as an example. I expect we're going to need to support all kinds of energy intensive industries through an enforced transition of our energy supplies. I suspect we might also need to invest much more in cleaner forms of nuclear power. Best not to be tangled up with EU bureaucracy whilst deciding these things.

plodder
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:57 am

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:54 am
I'm a bit long in the tooth to worry too much about theoretical consistency, but I agree with plodder's angle as an example. I expect we're going to need to support all kinds of energy intensive industries through an enforced transition of our energy supplies. I suspect we might also need to invest much more in cleaner forms of nuclear power. Best not to be tangled up with EU bureaucracy whilst deciding these things.
You do need to be clear on what exactly you think we gain from working in a looser governance environment - we've had loads of green initiatives over the years already - they typically get scrapped by lazy chancellors though.

sheldrake
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:01 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:57 am
You do need to be clear on what exactly you think we gain from working in a looser governance environment
Faster decision making that's more accountable to UK voters.
- we've had loads of green initiatives over the years already - they typically get scrapped by lazy chancellors though.
I think that just has to be fixed by voting. If we're going to force the economy off of fossil fuels we can't just push all of the heavy industry jobs and carbon footprint to run on chinese coal.

temptar
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Re: Brexit benefits

Post by temptar » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:15 am

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:01 am
plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:57 am
You do need to be clear on what exactly you think we gain from working in a looser governance environment
Faster decision making that's more accountable to UK voters.
- we've had loads of green initiatives over the years already - they typically get scrapped by lazy chancellors though.
I think that just has to be fixed by voting. If we're going to force the economy off of fossil fuels we can't just push all of the heavy industry jobs and carbon footprint to run on chinese coal.
Your voting system won't save you.

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