NFTs

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sheldrake
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Re: NFTs

Post by sheldrake » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:12 am

lpm wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:06 am
Don't bother talking about the problems, a child of 5 can see them.
You'd be surprised actually. I worked with well paid people with fancy degrees who could not.
I'm trying to determine if it's a scam, i.e. an orchestrated long con. Or if it's an overheated irrational market, similar to GameStop.
I think it's the art market on steroids. They're not all being sold by a single person or group who coordinate with each other, but the hype will be driven by some cynical speculators.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: NFTs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:25 am

I know an artist. They do incredibly intricate psychedelic paintings, and sell prints and badges and stuff online while having a day job.

NFTs come along and suddenly he can make enough income from art alone.

I see it more as like a one-off Patreon thing. You're paying an artist for an art you like, even though it's in the digital realm.

Of course it can be pirated, like anything else digital, but it seems there are enough people quite happy to give money to content creators they like.


As for the scam, I don't know. Using them as an investment sounds bonkers. I didn't even know they had crypo block chains behind them tbh.

If there is any scam, I'd look at people promoting resale of second-hand NFTs, investment guides, "How do get rich with a diversified portfolio of Pepe Frog memes and titillating foot pics" etc. Just like with the traditional art world really - plus ça change and all that.
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Re: NFTs

Post by plodder » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:27 am

That's a really good point. We need to unpick the traditional art market scams from the new crypto / digital scams. Same bunch of posh people, just the crypto guys are a few years younger.

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Re: NFTs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:35 am

I suspect an even higher proportion of crypto money needs to be laundered, too.
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Re: NFTs

Post by science_fox » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:28 pm

I'm not afraid of catching Covid, I'm afraid of catching idiot.

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Re: NFTs

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:14 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:25 am
I know an artist. They do incredibly intricate psychedelic paintings, and sell prints and badges and stuff online while having a day job.

NFTs come along and suddenly he can make enough income from art alone.

I see it more as like a one-off Patreon thing. You're paying an artist for an art you like, even though it's in the digital realm.

Of course it can be pirated, like anything else digital, but it seems there are enough people quite happy to give money to content creators they like.


As for the scam, I don't know. Using them as an investment sounds bonkers. I didn't even know they had crypo block chains behind them tbh.

If there is any scam, I'd look at people promoting resale of second-hand NFTs, investment guides, "How do get rich with a diversified portfolio of Pepe Frog memes and titillating foot pics" etc. Just like with the traditional art world really - plus ça change and all that.
The thing about art sales as you describe them is that the NFT part doesn't add anything necessary for this. As I mentioned earlier, the actual art is hosted on a normal server, not on a blockchain. The NFT just contains a pointer to the server. If you buy an NFT you have to trust the old-school centralized server to contain the thing the NFT seller claims it does. The whole system is based on trust, so an artist could sell digital art while storing the database entry 'proving ownership' on the same server. Any hypothetical copyright associated with an NFT would have to be enforced by State authority. The resale/greater fool crypto hype aspect is the only thing NFTs bring to the table.

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Re: NFTs

Post by temptar » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:19 pm

Thought experiment for you all.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realnatashac ... 38?lang=en

I am not touching NFTs with a barge pole. If I want a diamond, I will be a goddamn diamond, and not a token of adiamond.

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lpm
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Re: NFTs

Post by lpm » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:26 pm

Lol. Just like Ivan's stones, where one fell overboard but was still treated as an asset even though at the bottom of the sea.

But it seems real people, artists and meme "owners", are getting genuine money out of this. Temporarily anyway, while the stupid continues, which could be for months, years or centuries. So where's the problem?
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Re: NFTs

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:29 pm

temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:19 pm
Thought experiment for you all.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realnatashac ... 38?lang=en

I am not touching NFTs with a barge pole. If I want a diamond, I will be a goddamn diamond, and not a token of adiamond.
Yea but.

If the destroyed diamond is viewed as a work of art then not much new is happening here. There's a long history of works of art being being intentionally destroyed by their creator (as a comment on the nature of culture or society or something). For example there is an annual festival involving making art to be burnt in Spain.

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Re: NFTs

Post by temptar » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:31 pm

An asset you cannot liquidate, eventually, because it has been destroyed, is not an asset.

I get a whiff of Tulips off this.

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Re: NFTs

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:35 pm

temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:31 pm
An asset you cannot liquidate, eventually, because it has been destroyed, is not an asset.

I get a whiff of Tulips off this.
Certainly, it is not an asset.

But someone may still wish to invest in something that is destroyed to support the artist and the point they are making. People spend money on art for other reasons than as a store of wealth.

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Re: NFTs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:39 pm

I don't think digital art has much in common with a diamond.

People pay for intangible digital art all the time, when it's music or streaming. It doesn't seem so wild that a system exists whereby artists can make money out of static digital art without having to print them off or engrave them on a diamond.

The weirdness comes from the idea of using these things as an investment vehicle - is that a significant proportion of purchasers?
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Re: NFTs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:44 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:14 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:25 am
I know an artist. They do incredibly intricate psychedelic paintings, and sell prints and badges and stuff online while having a day job.

NFTs come along and suddenly he can make enough income from art alone.

I see it more as like a one-off Patreon thing. You're paying an artist for an art you like, even though it's in the digital realm.

Of course it can be pirated, like anything else digital, but it seems there are enough people quite happy to give money to content creators they like.


As for the scam, I don't know. Using them as an investment sounds bonkers. I didn't even know they had crypo block chains behind them tbh.

If there is any scam, I'd look at people promoting resale of second-hand NFTs, investment guides, "How do get rich with a diversified portfolio of Pepe Frog memes and titillating foot pics" etc. Just like with the traditional art world really - plus ça change and all that.
The thing about art sales as you describe them is that the NFT part doesn't add anything necessary for this. As I mentioned earlier, the actual art is hosted on a normal server, not on a blockchain. The NFT just contains a pointer to the server. If you buy an NFT you have to trust the old-school centralized server to contain the thing the NFT seller claims it does. The whole system is based on trust, so an artist could sell digital art while storing the database entry 'proving ownership' on the same server. Any hypothetical copyright associated with an NFT would have to be enforced by State authority. The resale/greater fool crypto hype aspect is the only thing NFTs bring to the table.
It doesn't add anything practically necessary, no. But I don't think the art market, even at the lower end where we're talking about aesthetic appreciation rather than investment, is a strictly rational arena.

Something about having a kind of digital token of ownership seems to matter to people, in a way that paypalling somebody some money and downloading an email attachment wouldn't. Possibly it's pure mystique.

But I'd be very interested to hear how many art purchasers, as opposed to techy investor types, genuinely give much of a hoot about the details of how blockchain does or doesn't work. I suspect they're just buying some art they like, supporting its creator, and getting a little "certificate of authenticity" with it makes it feel more final.
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Re: NFTs

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:49 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:44 pm
It doesn't add anything practically necessary, no. But I don't think the art market, even at the lower end where we're talking about aesthetic appreciation rather than investment, is a strictly rational arena.

Something about having a kind of digital token of ownership seems to matter to people, in a way that paypalling somebody some money and downloading an email attachment wouldn't. Possibly it's pure mystique.

But I'd be very interested to hear how many art purchasers, as opposed to techy investor types, genuinely give much of a hoot about the details of how blockchain does or doesn't work. I suspect they're just buying some art they like, supporting its creator, and getting a little "certificate of authenticity" with it makes it feel more final.
But that's the thing though. If people don't care about the crypto aspect they could in principle buy a digital certificate of ownership hosted on a normal server. Digital certificates are a thing, and like all things that are not literally crypotcurrencies, they don't need a blockchain.

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Re: NFTs

Post by lpm » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:54 pm

I know art buyers and they're heavily into the investment side. It's hardly ever about supporting an artist they like or even enjoying the art. These are rich people who play games with their money, and this particular art game is picking artists whose work will appreciate in value.

I'd say approx 0.0% of buyers of NFTs are doing it to buy art they like or to support the creator. There's Patreons and stuff for that kind of thing.
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Re: NFTs

Post by lpm » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:02 pm

The buyers of NFTs can be divided up as follows, and I've no idea what the proportions of each category are.

1) Idiots who think they're buying something real with genuine value

2) Sophisticated investors who understand the market fully but are taking a view that the irrationality will grow. They know they are making a risky investment but hope for big returns if the idiots push up prices.

3) Shills who are ramping the market with fake purchases, in the A to B to C thing.

4) Convincers - if you're trying to sell the mark something worthless for $50,000 it's useful to have convincers buying similar "assets" for $100,000. "Sorry mate, you're too late for that thing you were interested in, just sold for double what you were offering; the other thing you're interested in is still available but you have to be quick".

5) Art lovers / artist supporters
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Re: NFTs

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:21 pm

One fundamental thing is that an NFT is not in itself copyright or other IP. If a copyright or IP assignment takes place as part of the transaction, that's just a regular IP assignment contract, issued in exchange for digital or regular currency.

My understanding is that the NFT is at best a signed statement that the IP assignment contract exists (assuming that IP assignment happened). An alternative with more legal weight would be to get a notary public to witness the contract.

Oh, and nothing about NFTs prevents the server owner replacing the destination of the URL with goatse or child p.rn, or anything else. And the comeback there would be via the courts enforcing a contract.

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Re: NFTs

Post by Stephanie » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:40 pm

I guess these lot are the scam part https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgxnew/ ... in-one-day
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Re: NFTs

Post by Boustrophedon » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:59 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:17 am
Just a scam, right?

https://mobile.twitter.com/smdiehl/stat ... 7826208770
Just like a lot of modern "art."
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Re: NFTs

Post by Boustrophedon » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:24 pm

temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:19 pm
Thought experiment for you all.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realnatashac ... 38?lang=en

I am not touching NFTs with a barge pole. If I want a diamond, I will be a goddamn diamond, and not a token of adiamond.
But a diamond is in itself worth only what the market believes it to be worth. In fact diamonds are pretty common, but all the supply is dominated by De Beers, so diamonds are worth, what De Beers says they are worth, sound much like an NFT? There are a lot of stones, much rarer by the carat that somehow don't fetch the same price.

If I can do a De Beers and market a Rare Digital Thingtm and people believe it to be worth summat, then people will sell and buy the damn things and more fool them.

Personally I value things by their utility; food, warmth, housing, nothing but nothing else is worth the paper it is not written on.

Having said that, and bearing in mind the Weimar republic and hyper inflation, the thought of investing in something tangible like gold, in these uncertain times is appealing.
“This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it."
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Re: NFTs

Post by sheldrake » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:32 pm

Boustrophedon wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:24 pm

If I can do a De Beers and market a Rare Digital Thingtm and people believe it to be worth summat, then people will sell and buy the damn things and more fool them.
The problem is the Digital Thing here isn't really rare. It's a very fluffy hypothetical entitlement to something that, even if it was preserved in the blockchain rather than accessed via a URL to some server, there are an unlimited number of perfect copies of.

The actual Mona Lisa's value is not really about utlity, it's a subjectively beautiful thing that is also scarce. High resolution jpegs of the Mona Lisa aren't scarce.
Last edited by sheldrake on Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NFTs

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:33 pm

Boustrophedon wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:24 pm
temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:19 pm
Thought experiment for you all.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realnatashac ... 38?lang=en

I am not touching NFTs with a barge pole. If I want a diamond, I will be a goddamn diamond, and not a token of adiamond.
But a diamond is in itself worth only what the market believes it to be worth. In fact diamonds are pretty common, but all the supply is dominated by De Beers, so diamonds are worth, what De Beers says they are worth, sound much like an NFT? There are a lot of stones, much rarer by the carat that somehow don't fetch the same price.
I'm now seeing TV ads for realdiamonds.com, which I assume is a De Beers operation to try and counteract the trend towards artificial diamonds, or costume jewelry (because who the f.ck cares if your sparkly earrings are diamonds or glass, as long as they sparkle?).

I assume that they are also against fizzy keg diamonds. And probably diamond white.

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Re: NFTs

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:54 am

Boustrophedon wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:24 pm
temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:19 pm
Thought experiment for you all.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realnatashac ... 38?lang=en

I am not touching NFTs with a barge pole. If I want a diamond, I will be a goddamn diamond, and not a token of adiamond.
But a diamond is in itself worth only what the market believes it to be worth. In fact diamonds are pretty common, but all the supply is dominated by De Beers, so diamonds are worth, what De Beers says they are worth, sound much like an NFT? There are a lot of stones, much rarer by the carat that somehow don't fetch the same price.

If I can do a De Beers and market a Rare Digital Thingtm and people believe it to be worth summat, then people will sell and buy the damn things and more fool them.

Personally I value things by their utility; food, warmth, housing, nothing but nothing else is worth the paper it is not written on.

Having said that, and bearing in mind the Weimar republic and hyper inflation, the thought of investing in something tangible like gold, in these uncertain times is appealing.
The link refers to someone who registered an NFT for a diamond. They then destroyed the diamond but people are still willing to pay for the NFT.

This is seen as having radically changed the notion of an asset. But I'm not sure, as there is a long history of works of art having been deliberately destroyed by their creator (with the destruction being part of the work of art). So if the NFT is assumed to be in that category its not radically different to what exists already.

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Re: NFTs

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:12 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:54 am
Boustrophedon wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:24 pm
temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:19 pm
Thought experiment for you all.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realnatashac ... 38?lang=en

I am not touching NFTs with a barge pole. If I want a diamond, I will be a goddamn diamond, and not a token of adiamond.
But a diamond is in itself worth only what the market believes it to be worth. In fact diamonds are pretty common, but all the supply is dominated by De Beers, so diamonds are worth, what De Beers says they are worth, sound much like an NFT? There are a lot of stones, much rarer by the carat that somehow don't fetch the same price.

If I can do a De Beers and market a Rare Digital Thingtm and people believe it to be worth summat, then people will sell and buy the damn things and more fool them.

Personally I value things by their utility; food, warmth, housing, nothing but nothing else is worth the paper it is not written on.

Having said that, and bearing in mind the Weimar republic and hyper inflation, the thought of investing in something tangible like gold, in these uncertain times is appealing.
The link refers to someone who registered an NFT for a diamond. They then destroyed the diamond but people are still willing to pay for the NFT.

This is seen as having radically changed the notion of an asset. But I'm not sure, as there is a long history of works of art having been deliberately destroyed by their creator (with the destruction being part of the work of art). So if the NFT is assumed to be in that category its not radically different to what exists already.
Imagine if the diamond never really existed, it's just that somebody on Twitter said that it did.

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Re: NFTs

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:21 am

“This is not a pipe”

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