UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

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purplehaze
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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by purplehaze » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:07 pm

I'm reminded of corrective rape which is used on lesbians to make them heterosexual and it often leads to murder too. It's pernicious throughout society, globally, and especially those who are addicted to p.rn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrective_rape

Conversion therapy doesn't work, we know this but support must be given to those who as children/teenagers become transgender and later as adults regret it. They are mostly young adult women who have had a double mastectomy, who later present as lesbian. Their young voices must be heard and recognised.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by monkey » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:50 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:07 pm
Conversion therapy doesn't work, we know this but support must be given to those who as children/teenagers become transgender and later as adults regret it. They are mostly young adult women who have had a double mastectomy, who later present as lesbian. Their young voices must be heard and recognised.
Which bit of the proposal suggests that they wouldn't be able to get it?

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by sheldrake » Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:13 pm

monkey wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:50 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:07 pm
Conversion therapy doesn't work, we know this but support must be given to those who as children/teenagers become transgender and later as adults regret it. They are mostly young adult women who have had a double mastectomy, who later present as lesbian. Their young voices must be heard and recognised.
Which bit of the proposal suggests that they wouldn't be able to get it?
Stonewall's spokesperson's twitter thread is asking for 'talking only' therapies to be included in the ban, even where an adult gives consent. It depends what the legal definition of 'therapy' is here.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by sheldrake » Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:56 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:01 pm
I get the impression that the language is a sop to groups who believe there are a cabal of people out there trying to turn kids gay or trans. As there aren't, there's nothing to worry about. Helping people explore their sexuality or gender identity, and supporting them if they chose to identify as non-straight and non-cis is still allowed.
I would not make assumptions about that. It won't be you, Stonewall or Mermaids that gets determine whether a given educational talk or counselling session provided to a child counts as an attempt to 'convert' them. It will be the Home Office, CPS and the Police. Under a Tory govt with a huge majority.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Fishnut » Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:59 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:56 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:01 pm
I get the impression that the language is a sop to groups who believe there are a cabal of people out there trying to turn kids gay or trans. As there aren't, there's nothing to worry about. Helping people explore their sexuality or gender identity, and supporting them if they chose to identify as non-straight and non-cis is still allowed.
I would not make assumptions about that. It won't be you, Stonewall or Mermaids that gets determine whether a given educational talk or counselling session provided to a child counts as an attempt to 'convert' them. It will be the Home Office, CPS and the Police.
I am well aware of that. But nothing I have seen from those organisations suggests that they have any concerns and as they're the experts and have been involved in these fights far longer than I have I defer to their expertise.
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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by sheldrake » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:02 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:59 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:56 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:01 pm
I get the impression that the language is a sop to groups who believe there are a cabal of people out there trying to turn kids gay or trans. As there aren't, there's nothing to worry about. Helping people explore their sexuality or gender identity, and supporting them if they chose to identify as non-straight and non-cis is still allowed.
I would not make assumptions about that. It won't be you, Stonewall or Mermaids that gets determine whether a given educational talk or counselling session provided to a child counts as an attempt to 'convert' them. It will be the Home Office, CPS and the Police.
I am well aware of that. But nothing I have seen from those organisations suggests that they have any concerns and as they're the experts and have been involved in these fights far longer than I have I defer to their expertise.
They may have just misjudged how this will be used. We're going to be living under a conservative govt. likely for a long time.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Fishnut » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:06 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:02 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:59 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:56 pm


I would not make assumptions about that. It won't be you, Stonewall or Mermaids that gets determine whether a given educational talk or counselling session provided to a child counts as an attempt to 'convert' them. It will be the Home Office, CPS and the Police.
I am well aware of that. But nothing I have seen from those organisations suggests that they have any concerns and as they're the experts and have been involved in these fights far longer than I have I defer to their expertise.
They may have just misjudged how this will be used. We're going to be living under a conservative govt. likely for a long time.
I think they're well aware of what a conservative government can do, given that most of the activists in those orgs grew up during Section 28.
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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by monkey » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:55 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:13 pm
monkey wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:50 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:07 pm
Conversion therapy doesn't work, we know this but support must be given to those who as children/teenagers become transgender and later as adults regret it. They are mostly young adult women who have had a double mastectomy, who later present as lesbian. Their young voices must be heard and recognised.
Which bit of the proposal suggests that they wouldn't be able to get it?
Stonewall's spokesperson's twitter thread is asking for 'talking only' therapies to be included in the ban, even where an adult gives consent. It depends what the legal definition of 'therapy' is here.
This doesn't answer my question. Stonewall suggesting the ban goes further is not part of the proposal and the proposal sets out what the Government's thinking about what the definition of conversion therapy would be.

I was wondering if Purplehaze had read something in it (or perhaps missed something) that suggested that someone detransitioning would not be able to get help, because I was under the impression that would not be prevented under the proposal.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by sheldrake » Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:12 am

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:06 pm

I think they're well aware of what a conservative government can do, given that most of the activists in those orgs grew up during Section 28.
Then they hopefully won't be too taken by surprise when religious activists use this legislation to press for prosecution of exactly the kind section 28 was intended for, because that's exactly what's being planned in some quarters.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Fishnut » Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:12 pm

This is a good piece on the plan to allow "consensual" conversion therapy. It's by the lead on a team who were commissioned to conduct independent research by the Government Equalities Office for the consultation. They write,
We did come across examples of overt coercion in our research. One woman told us she was locked in a room for days by her parents until she agreed to undergo conversion efforts. And a transgender woman who was living in accommodation provided by her church was offered “counselling” and then threatened with eviction if she did not comply.

Most, however, told us they had undergone conversion therapy “voluntarily” but in the face of powerful social pressures. The people we interviewed typically feared being rejected by their families or whole communities if they did not change. They were also often following the guidance of people in positions of trust and authority...

The government is insisting that “requirements will be robust and stringent”, specifying that consent must be voluntary (“not be influenced by others”) and informed. Most of the people we spoke to felt they were not given accurate information free from bias, were not informed of the risks of conversion efforts or offered an alternative.
There's more at the piece and I recommend reading it all, but the conclusion is that it's incredibly difficult to differentiate coercion from informed consent and that in religious settings the boundaries between conversion therapy and pastoral care are often blurred.
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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Martin_B » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:20 am

Cheers, Fishnut!
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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:35 am

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:12 pm
This is a good piece on the plan to allow "consensual" conversion therapy. It's by the lead on a team who were commissioned to conduct independent research by the Government Equalities Office for the consultation. They write,
We did come across examples of overt coercion in our research. One woman told us she was locked in a room for days by her parents until she agreed to undergo conversion efforts. And a transgender woman who was living in accommodation provided by her church was offered “counselling” and then threatened with eviction if she did not comply.

Most, however, told us they had undergone conversion therapy “voluntarily” but in the face of powerful social pressures. The people we interviewed typically feared being rejected by their families or whole communities if they did not change. They were also often following the guidance of people in positions of trust and authority...

The government is insisting that “requirements will be robust and stringent”, specifying that consent must be voluntary (“not be influenced by others”) and informed. Most of the people we spoke to felt they were not given accurate information free from bias, were not informed of the risks of conversion efforts or offered an alternative.
There's more at the piece and I recommend reading it all, but the conclusion is that it's incredibly difficult to differentiate coercion from informed consent and that in religious settings the boundaries between conversion therapy and pastoral care are often blurred.
Thanks, that is a good piece.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Fishnut » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:13 pm

Stonewall has put out its guidance for the consultation. If you want to respond but aren't sure how it's a great help. They don't provide template answers, just advice on what to include in your responses.
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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Fishnut » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:53 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:13 pm
Stonewall has put out its guidance for the consultation. If you want to respond but aren't sure how it's a great help. They don't provide template answers, just advice on what to include in your responses.
I've been working through the consultation and there's actually a few omissions in the advice which is disappointing. These are the questions along with the Stonewall advice where available.

The Consultation begins with some background questions.
- Are you providing an individual or personal response or a response on behalf of an organisation?
- The consultation is open to everyone. We are particularly interested in hearing from people with relevant experiences. [Offers a range of experiences that, if you have had, may lead to extra questions later]
- Where do you live?
- How old are you?
- What is your sex? (A question on gender will be asked later)
- What is your ethnic group?
- What is your religion?
- What was the occupation of your main household earner when you were about aged 14?
- Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?
- Which of the following best describes your sexual orientation?
- Do you have any physical or mental health conditions or illnesses lasting or expected to last 12 months or more?
- Do any of your conditions or illnesses reduce your ability to carry-out day-to-day activities?

Then it gets to the consultation proper.

Personal experience of conversion therapy
- Have you ever been offered conversion therapy?

- Have you ever had conversion therapy?

Views on banning conversion therapy
- Do you agree or disagree that the Government should intervene to end conversion therapy in principle?
Stonewall advice: Strongly agree

- Why do you think this?
Stonewall considerations: The impact of conversion therapy and its prevalence:
- The UK Government’s own commissioned research shows that LGBTQIA+ people who are subjected to conversion therapy are at higher risk of severe mental health problems, including depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation and risk of suicide attempts.
- The Government’s National LGBT Survey found that 7% of LGBT people have been subjected or offered conversion therapy. These figures are higher for trans and asexual people.


Targeting physical conversion therapy
- To what extent do you support, or not support, the Government's proposal for addressing physical acts of conversion therapy?
Stonewall advice: Strongly support

- Why do you think this?
Stonewall advice:
This is an opportunity to feedback on the UK Government’s proposal to deal with violent acts of conversion therapy that are already crimes. Physical and sexual abuse are already crimes in other areas of English and Welsh law, but they can be a part of conversion therapy. We recommend you respond in your own words - copy-pasting is not as impactful.
- This is a useful and effective proposal for dealing with the serious violent offences that conversion therapy can involve.
- It will enable prosecutors to make a case that the attempt to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity was a motivating factor in a violent crime, and for a judge to “uplift” the sentence in a similar way to how hate crime legislation works.


Targeting talking conversion therapy
- The Government considers that delivering talking therapy with the intention of changing a person’s sexual orientation or changing them from being transgender or to being transgender either to someone who is under 18, or to someone who is 18 or over and who has not consented or lacks the capacity to do so should be considered a criminal offence. The consultation document describes proposals to introduce new criminal law that will capture this. How far do you agree or disagree with this?
Stonewall advice: Somewhat agree

- How far do you agree or disagree with the penalties being proposed?
Stonewall advice: Somewhat agree

- Do you think that these proposals miss anything?
Stonewall advice: Yes

- If yes, can you tell us what you think we have missed?
Stonewall considerations: Please consider the five crucial points below in your response.
1. There is a loophole which would permit conversion therapy to continue where an adult ‘consents.’
- The UK Government’s own research into conversion therapy shows that adults who said they consented to conversion therapy were not given full and unbiased information about the practice, were not informed of the risks it involved, and were not offered any alternative.
- Conversion therapy causes serious psychological harm and happens in an environment of duress and power imbalance that makes consent meaningless.

2. The definition of conversion therapy does not cover suppressing as well as changing sexual orientation or gender identity.
- It’s crucial that both attempts to change and suppress LGBTQIA+ people’s identities are banned in conversion therapy legislation.
- Trying to force a person to never act or express their sexual orientation or gender identity is as much a form of conversion therapy as trying to change them, and just as abusive.

3. There is a lack of clarity about whether the proposals will protect everyone at risk.
- It is unclear whether the ban would cover asexual and aromantic people. The UK Government’s National LGBT Survey found that asexual people are at a higher risk of being offered or undergoing conversion therapy (10%).
- It is also unclear whether the UK Government considers non-binary people or intersex people as part of the protections for trans people.
- The wording of the law must make clear that all LGBTQIA+ people are protected by the ban.

4. There is a lack of clarity about how conversion therapy in religious settings will be effectively banned.
- Religious and faith-based conversion practices constitute the majority of conversion practices in the UK and internationally. The UK Government’s National LGBT Survey respondents were most likely to say that faith organisations had offered (53%) or conducted (51%) conversion therapy.
- The UK Government’s commissioned research showed that religious conversion practices are mostly non-physical: prayer, Bible readings, healing, confession, faith declarations. The legislation must be clear these are banned when used as a form of conversion therapy.
- The UK Government must reassert that Article 3 of the European Convention of Human Rights is absolute and trumps all other – freedom of speech and freedom of religion or belief cannot be used legally to justify torture or inhuman or degrading treatment, which conversion therapy is.

5. The proposals should make clear that gender transition services are not considered a form of conversion therapy.
- The UK Government should make clear, either directly in legislation or in guidance accompanying a Bill, that gender transition services, gender transition healthcare and legitimate and explorative gender identity therapy are not forms of conversion therapy and therefore would not be an offence under its proposals.


Restricting the promotion of conversion therapy
- The Government considers that Ofcom’s Broadcasting Code already provides measures against the broadcast and promotion of conversion therapy. How far do you agree or disagree with this?
Stonewall advice: Somewhat disagree

- Why do you think this?
No Stonewall advice

- Do you know of any examples of broadcasting that you consider to be endorsing or promoting conversion therapy?

- If yes, can you tell us what these examples are?

- The Government considers that the existing codes set out by the Advertising Standards Authority and the Committee of Advertising Practice already prohibits the advertisement of conversion therapy. How far do you agree or disagree with this?
Stonewall advice: Somewhat disagree

- Do you know of any examples of advertisements that you consider to be endorsing or promoting conversion therapy?

- If yes, can you tell us what these examples are?

Protecting people from conversion therapy overseas
- The consultation document describes proposals to introduce conversion therapy protection orders to tackle a gap in provision for victims of the practice. To what extent do you agree or disagree that there is a gap in the provision for victims of conversion therapy?
Stonewall advice: Strongly agree

- To what extent do you agree or disagree with our proposals for addressing this gap we have identified?
Stonewall advice: Somewhat agree

- Why do you think this?
Stonewall advice:
- This is a welcome form of protection for vulnerable LGBTQIA+ children and young people.
- The UK Government should also consider introducing offences for aiding or abetting in the removal of a person from the UK for the purpose conversion therapy in the way that female genital mutilation or forced marriage are criminal offences.
- The UK Government should also investigate how to ban conversion therapy that is offered virtually by providers outside the UK to LGBTQIA+ people inside the UK via Skype or similar online platforms.


Ensuring charities do not support conversion therapy
- Charity trustees are the people who are responsible for governing a charity and directing how it is managed and run. The consultation document describes proposals whereby anyone found guilty of carrying out conversion therapy will have the case against them for being disqualified from serving as a trustee at any charity strengthened. To what extent do you agree or disagree with this approach?
Stonewall advice: Strongly agree

- Why do you think this?
Stonewall advice:
- This is an opportunity for you to feedback on the proposals to restrict charities or charity leaders who promote or provide conversion therapy.
These include potentially removing offending charities from the charities register, and banning offenders from being trustees or charity senior leaders.
- This is a good proposal for further limiting the influence of those who have been found guilty of trying to change or suppress the sexual orientation or gender identity of LGBTQIA+ people.


Recognition by authorities of conversion therapy as a problem
- To what extent do you agree or disagree that the following organisations are providing adequate action against people who might already be carrying out conversion therapy? (Police, Crown Prosecution Service, Other statutory service)
Stonewall advice: Strongly disagree

- Why do you think this?
Stonewall advice:
This is an opportunity to explain how public authorities, such as the police and courts, are taking – or not taking action – against perpetrators of conversion therapy.
Evidence from Galop – the LGBTQ+ anti-abuse charity – shows:
- Frontline services such as the police, health services and education systems are not recognising when someone is being subjected to conversion therapy.
- This is because conversion therapy so often takes place in familial, cultural, community or religious settings: the perpetrators are in the majority part of the victim’s religious community, and can in some cases be their own family members.
- Statutory services ignore risks of conversion therapy – including physical or sexual abuse – because they perceive them as disagreements over religious or cultural beliefs in families or communities.
- Statutory authorities are taking limited action to support conversion therapy victims to escape abusive situations, and extremely limited action against the perpetrators.


- To what extent do you agree or disagree that the following organisations are providing adequate support for victims of conversion therapy? (Police, Crown Prosecution Service, Other statutory service)
Stonewall advice: Strongly disagree

- Why do you think this?
Stonewall advice: This is an opportunity to explain how public authorities, such as the police, courts, education, health and social services, are supporting – or not supporting – victims of conversion therapy.
Evidence from Galop – the LGBTQ+ anti-abuse charity – shows:
- Conversion therapy is widely unrecognised by most statutory services. Those that do recognise conversion therapy do not know what to do about it.
- The responses of all statutory services to victims of conversion therapy is entirely inadequate.
- Without statutory guidance or training for service providers, each professional takes their own personal view.
- Galop has witnessed statutory authority professionals siding with the perpetrator of conversion therapy over the victim, and manifesting their personal beliefs about LGBTQIA+ people to restrict victims’ access to support.


- Do you think that these services can do more to support victims of conversion therapy?
No Stonewall advice

- If yes, what more do you think they could do?

Economic appraisal
- Do you have any evidence on the economic or financial costs or benefits of any of the proposals set out in the consultation?
No Stonewall advice

- If yes, please can you provide us with details of this evidence, including where possible, any references to publications?

Equalities impacts appraisal
- There is a duty on public authorities to consider or think about how their policies or decisions affect people who are protected under the Equality Act 2010. Do you have any evidence of the equalities impacts of any proposals set out in the consultation?
No Stonewall advice

- If yes, please can you provide us with details of this evidence, including where possible, any references to publications?
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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Allo V Psycho » Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:09 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:13 pm
Stonewall has put out its guidance for the consultation. If you want to respond but aren't sure how it's a great help. They don't provide template answers, just advice on what to include in your responses.
Thanks Fishnut. The Medical Schools Council has put out a statement and invited medical schools to send it to all staff and students.
MSC Statement on LGBTQ+ so-called conversion therapy

Given recent UK events, the global calls for a ban by the United Nations, and in light of the UK government’s consultation work to fulfil its commitment to ban LGBTQ+ conversion therapy, MSC would like to make it clear to staff and students that it unequivocally believes such so-called therapies have no place in clinical practice.

Medical schools teach evidence based medicine to their students and there is no credible evidence base to support conversion therapy.

The newly established MSC Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Alliance is in the process of putting together a strategy and work plan for the next few years and this will include work to highlight and address issues faced by LGBTQ+ medical students, staff and patients. This will encompass work to support the development of learning opportunities for students to understand the harmful impacts of so-called conversion therapies.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:02 am

It looks like the government have done an S turn and the ban is apparently still going to happen after it looked like it wouldn’t.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other

Obviously we shouldn’t be surprised that the government is a complete shambles.

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Re: UK Government Consultation on Banning Conversion Therapy

Post by monkey » Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:35 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:02 am
It looks like the government have done an S turn and the ban is apparently still going to happen after it looked like it wouldn’t.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other

Obviously we shouldn’t be surprised that the government is a complete shambles.
The second one is only half a U-turn though: “only gay conversion therapy, not trans”. I'm not sure what letter that would be.

And they don't look any less c.ntish.

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