COP26

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Re: COP26

Post by bagpuss » Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:57 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:36 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:25 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:20 pm
Israel's Energy Minister was unable to attend today because the transport offered to get to the venue was not wheelchair accessible. According to a tweet by a Jerusalem Post reporter,


Liam O'Dell, a Deaf journalist, also reports that there's no sign language interpreter on stage.

The National Federation of the Blind of the UK is asking world leaders to put accessibility at the heart of their policies.

I really can't understand how you can put on such a gigantic conference and not consider the fact that some of the delegates may be disabled.
The BBC is reporting that UK's Environment Secretary George Eustice is blaming the Israeli delegation for the lack of accessible transport/entrances:
What would normally happen in this situation is that Israel would have communicated that they had that particular need for their minister.

"There was obviously something that went wrong in this instance and they weren't aware of that so they hadn't made the right provisions at that particular entrance she was coming too.
Or, you know, you could just make sure your venue is accessible to wheelchair users from the start, regardless of which entrance they're using.
That's sh.t.

I suspect that its worse. I'll be amazed if the SEC isn't normally accessible to people using wheelchairs. There are standards for new public buildings. Its not some medieval castle with access via stone staircases.

So what may have happened is that the event organizers took an accessible building and made it inaccessible through adding security checks etc.
I can't really make sense of what is being reported about this, to be honest. Apparently most of the entrances are accessible but she went to one that isn't - the implication being that if she'd gone to one of the others, then she'd have been able to get in. But then the BBC article says that she couldn't get into the grounds because the only options were a wheelchair-inaccessible shuttle bus or walking. Apparently she arrived in a car (which she had to because she tried to get on the shuttle bus and couldn't) and that's why she wasn't able to get in.

But if all of that is the case, what happened to all those other supposedly accessible entrances?

The only way I can make sense of it is if there was some kind of security cordon that was preventing any vehicles other than the shuttle buses from getting near the building. And then there was an entrance outside that cordon with separate security that was not wheelchair accessible. But then why on earth couldn't they just let her in through the bus entrance in her wheelchair? Or was it such a long way away that she wasn't able to travel that far in her wheelchair either?

Not that it really matters, but I like to understand. But clearly the organisers clearly somehow made a normally accessible venue not accessible, whether due to security measures or something, and it's utterly useless. Why the hell weren't the shuttle buses accessible? If our local National Trust estate can manage accessible shuttle buses, you'd think a major international conference would be able to.

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Re: COP26

Post by lpm » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:26 pm

This is all very 2021.

Ignore the life and death issues affecting billions, focus on the tiniest fragment of injustice.
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Re: COP26

Post by bagpuss » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:26 pm

Ah, reading the Guardian article on the incident, it seems that it was indeed the case that it was the car that was not allowed to enter. I'm still puzzled as to why apparently the only alternative was for her to "walk on foot" (her words) a long way - why was she not permitted to do that in her wheelchair? I can see that she might not be physically able to go that distance in her wheelchair either but that's not what she said - she specifically said that her options were shuttle bus or walk on foot.

Anyway, FFS, accessible shuttle buses should be a default for such events.

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Re: COP26

Post by bagpuss » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:28 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:26 pm
This is all very 2021.

Ignore the life and death issues affecting billions, focus on the tiniest fragment of injustice.
I don't see anyone ignoring the life and death issues affecting billions?

But how the f.ck are we going to even begin to address the climate problem if we apparently can't even manage to get one human into a building where she was meant to go.


Edit to fix typo

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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:13 pm

Obviously it's sh.t event organisation.

But it's telling that this thread is already about this kind of tabloid flinging-sh.t-at-the-wall rather than the pledges on methane, money for indigenous communities and deforestation already made, and with nearly two weeks of long-overdue chatting between delegations who haven't been able to meet for 18 months.

There's a lot of people who profit by driving attention away from the talks and undermining their agenda. I'm not saying that the Israeli minister or any other disabled people have done anything wrong, but this isn't where our attention should be driven.

People's lack of focus is much more worrying than the admittedly execrable f.ckups with disabled access.
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Re: COP26

Post by Fishnut » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:48 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:13 pm
Obviously it's sh.t event organisation.

But it's telling that this thread is already about this kind of tabloid flinging-sh.t-at-the-wall rather than the pledges on methane, money for indigenous communities and deforestation already made, and with nearly two weeks of long-overdue chatting between delegations who haven't been able to meet for 18 months.

There's a lot of people who profit by driving attention away from the talks and undermining their agenda. I'm not saying that the Israeli minister or any other disabled people have done anything wrong, but this isn't where our attention should be driven.

People's lack of focus is much more worrying than the admittedly execrable f.ckups with disabled access.
I have to disagree that this is a distraction. In 2019, ahead of COP25, the UN was recognising the disproportionate impacts climate change has on disabled people. It speaks volumes to me that two years later, COP26 cannot even accommodate its own privileged delegates if they are not able-bodied.
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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:58 pm

I agree that it's indicative of wider systemic problems. The hundreds of private jets that have arrived are too.

But the point of the talks is to take steps towards solving those problems. I don't think we should write off the talks for not having already solved them. I'm fine with excoriating the organisers for their f.ckup, but the amount of attention given to local logistical symptoms of the wider syndrome seems a bit disproportionate.

Big MPA just announced for south/central America. Looks to me like there were lots of half-cooked plans waiting for a face-to-face for the sign off. I think significant progress will be made, even if it's inadequate. But if we can get pledges to 2°C this round we might actually be able to stop warming around there.
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Re: COP26

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:58 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:13 pm
Obviously it's sh.t event organisation.

But it's telling that this thread is already about this kind of tabloid flinging-sh.t-at-the-wall rather than the pledges on methane, money for indigenous communities and deforestation already made, and with nearly two weeks of long-overdue chatting between delegations who haven't been able to meet for 18 months.

There's a lot of people who profit by driving attention away from the talks and undermining their agenda. I'm not saying that the Israeli minister or any other disabled people have done anything wrong, but this isn't where our attention should be driven.

People's lack of focus is much more worrying than the admittedly execrable f.ckups with disabled access.
You could perhaps post links to all that stuff. Then other people might start to discuss it.

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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:03 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:58 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:13 pm
Obviously it's sh.t event organisation.

But it's telling that this thread is already about this kind of tabloid flinging-sh.t-at-the-wall rather than the pledges on methane, money for indigenous communities and deforestation already made, and with nearly two weeks of long-overdue chatting between delegations who haven't been able to meet for 18 months.

There's a lot of people who profit by driving attention away from the talks and undermining their agenda. I'm not saying that the Israeli minister or any other disabled people have done anything wrong, but this isn't where our attention should be driven.

People's lack of focus is much more worrying than the admittedly execrable f.ckups with disabled access.
You could perhaps post links to all that stuff. Then other people might start to discuss it.
Yeah sorry for lpming the thread ;) It's been a busy few days. So far I've just been running off the guardian's special section https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... rence-2021

I'm running errands in Lisbon at the moment but when I get home I'll try to post links with some commentary.

Just picked up my transport card - 40€ a month for unlimited public transport in the wider Lisbon metropolitan area. It'll save me at least one tank of petrol a month, and costs about the same, so the extra reading time is a bonus I guess (commute is 90 mins on the bus vs 35 in my car).
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Re: COP26

Post by plodder » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:20 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:03 pm
and with nearly two weeks of long-overdue chatting between delegations who haven't been able to meet for 18 months
No-one's been able to meet and we've all got plenty of sh.t done. Why they have to wait is beyond me.

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Re: COP26

Post by WFJ » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:24 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:20 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:03 pm
and with nearly two weeks of long-overdue chatting between delegations who haven't been able to meet for 18 months
No-one's been able to meet and we've all got plenty of sh.t done. Why they have to wait is beyond me.
Everything will have been agreed long in advance of the summit. But what would be the point in them announcing anything when there are no photographers about?

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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:36 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:20 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:03 pm
and with nearly two weeks of long-overdue chatting between delegations who haven't been able to meet for 18 months
No-one's been able to meet and we've all got plenty of sh.t done. Why they have to wait is beyond me.
Yeah but they're all snakes, why would you promise anything to any of them if you couldn't look them in their reptilian eyes?

Also as WFJ says the photo-op is a powerful motivating factor for politicians. Even if they want to do the "right thing", they also need the public to know about it, which means creating 'moments' newsworthy enough to compete with wheelchair ramps and flight plans.
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Re: COP26

Post by dyqik » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:38 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:36 pm
plodder wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:20 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:03 pm
and with nearly two weeks of long-overdue chatting between delegations who haven't been able to meet for 18 months
No-one's been able to meet and we've all got plenty of sh.t done. Why they have to wait is beyond me.
Yeah but they're all snakes, why would you promise anything to any of them if you couldn't look them in their reptilian eyes?

Also as WFJ says the photo-op is a powerful motivating factor for politicians. Even if they want to do the "right thing", they also need the public to know about it, which means creating 'moments' newsworthy enough to compete with wheelchair ramps and flight plans.
While the text of what they'll agree is probably all arranged, there'll be different drafts and options that are open for discussion. The personal meetings and reassurances will change which parts of the overall text they agree to, and which options are chosen, particularly with respect to timescales.

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Re: COP26

Post by Fishnut » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:48 pm

These are a couple of good pieces on the announcements so far.

Global Methane Pledge
The pledge is an agreement to cut methane emissions by 30% between 2020 and 2030.
The TL:DR is that cutting methane is good - it has caused about 0.5°C of global warming - but it's a gas with a short half-life (around a decade) so this is a short-term win and can't be allowed to distract from our terrible record of cutting CO2 emissions, which have a very long half-life and will affect our climate for centuries to come.

Deforestation
The pledge is to halt and reverse deforestation by 2030.
The TL:DR is that if we want to tackle deforestation we need to give the people who are causing it reasons to protect it. While the causes of deforestation vary around the world, in many parts it's because ordinary people are trying to earn a living,
...the problem boils down to a conflict between those who benefit from deforestation and those who benefit from keeping forests intact... Conserving forests benefits everybody by stabilising the climate. But logging, or clearing a patch of forest for farming, benefits the people involved in a much more direct and tangible way. Ultimately, to keep forests intact, those who benefit from forests (that’s all of us) need to fund efforts to conserve them.
The author of the piece doesn't think this pledge is going to be successful - none of the previous pledges have been either - but they are cautiously optimistic that there is a sea-change in how the problem is being tackled and that the involvement of the communities who live in and near the forests means that workable solutions are becoming possible.
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Re: COP26

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pm

Thanks for those. I don't have the expertise to know whether something that looks good is a genuine breakthrough or just something put together by a PR agency. Hearing it from people who know what they are talking about is why I like this place.

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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:30 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:48 pm
These are a couple of good pieces on the announcements so far.

Global Methane Pledge
The pledge is an agreement to cut methane emissions by 30% between 2020 and 2030.
The TL:DR is that cutting methane is good - it has caused about 0.5°C of global warming - but it's a gas with a short half-life (around a decade) so this is a short-term win and can't be allowed to distract from our terrible record of cutting CO2 emissions, which have a very long half-life and will affect our climate for centuries to come.
The flip-side of this is that methane is a gas with a climate forcing 20+% that of CO2 during it's half-life, after which it breaks down into CO2 anyway. So a given unit of methane is worth about 20x the effort in reduction. There's plenty of very easy wins to be had in this department, so this pledge is setting much-needed political groundwork. It'll give activist lawyers plenty of grist for the mill as well.

If we all just stopped eating beef and cow-dairy we'd have way more time for the harder bits of reducing climate forcings. Even if we exempted the miniscule % of people who depend on those sources for a nutritionally crucial and irreplaceable fraction of their dietary intake, who obviously should be exempted and who would dominate all media coverage of a pledge on the issue.
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:48 pm
Deforestation
The pledge is to halt and reverse deforestation by 2030.
The TL:DR is that if we want to tackle deforestation we need to give the people who are causing it reasons to protect it. While the causes of deforestation vary around the world, in many parts it's because ordinary people are trying to earn a living,
...the problem boils down to a conflict between those who benefit from deforestation and those who benefit from keeping forests intact... Conserving forests benefits everybody by stabilising the climate. But logging, or clearing a patch of forest for farming, benefits the people involved in a much more direct and tangible way. Ultimately, to keep forests intact, those who benefit from forests (that’s all of us) need to fund efforts to conserve them.
The author of the piece doesn't think this pledge is going to be successful - none of the previous pledges have been either - but they are cautiously optimistic that there is a sea-change in how the problem is being tackled and that the involvement of the communities who live in and near the forests means that workable solutions are becoming possible.
On that note, see also the historic pledge of funding for indigenous people and local communities:
At least $1.7bn of funding will be given directly to indigenous peoples and local communities (IPLCs) in recognition of their key role in protecting the planet’s lands and forests, it will be announced at Cop26 today.

The governments of the UK, US, Germany, Norway and the Netherlands are leading the $1.7bn (£1.25bn) funding pledge, which is being announced as part of ambitious global efforts to reverse forest loss and land degradation by 2030, with campaigners cautiously hopeful that this conference of the parties (Cop) could be the first to properly champion indigenous peoples’ rights.
Indigenous peoples to get $1.7bn in recognition of role in protecting forests

I know it's a fraction of the $100bn pledged to poor countries generally, but it's a great start. "Paying for the natives" is a big point of political contention within Brazil, for instance, and Amazon-related policy is hugely important for hanging onto remaining carbon sinks - especially given all the worrying recent publications about reforestation/tree-planting often resulting in net carbon sources.
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Re: COP26

Post by dyqik » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:33 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:30 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:48 pm
These are a couple of good pieces on the announcements so far.

Global Methane Pledge
The pledge is an agreement to cut methane emissions by 30% between 2020 and 2030.
The TL:DR is that cutting methane is good - it has caused about 0.5°C of global warming - but it's a gas with a short half-life (around a decade) so this is a short-term win and can't be allowed to distract from our terrible record of cutting CO2 emissions, which have a very long half-life and will affect our climate for centuries to come.
The flip-side of this is that methane is a gas with a climate forcing 20+% that of CO2 during it's half-life, after which it breaks down into CO2 anyway. So a given unit of methane is worth about 20x the effort in reduction. There's plenty of very easy wins to be had in this department, so this pledge is setting much-needed political groundwork. It'll give activist lawyers plenty of grist for the mill as well.
An adjacent story I saw was that the West Texas oil and gas fields leak enough methane to supply 2/3 of Texas's domestic usage of natural gas. Which is an astonishing waste of potential profits, if nothing else.

Admittedly, Texas doesn't use nearly as much natural gas per home as the UK or New England, as the winters are much warmer and the population sparser, with electric heat more common.

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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:41 pm

Trade standards aligning to reduce friction in the production of electric vehicles and other important green tech:
A plan to coordinate the global introduction of clean technologies in order to rapidly drive down their cost has been agreed at the Cop26 summit by world leaders representing two-thirds of the world’s economy.

A global transition to green energy and vehicles is vital in tackling the climate crisis, and economies of scale mean that costs plummet as production increases – as already seen with solar panels and LED lightbulbs.

More than 40 nations said they would align standards and coordinate investments to speed up production and bring forward the “tipping point” at which green technologies are more affordable and accessible than fossil-fuelled alternatives. At that point, the green transition and cuts in climate emissions accelerate rapidly towards a net zero economy.

Among the countries signed up to the Breakthrough Agenda are the UK, US, China, India, the EU and Australia. The first five breakthroughs will be clean electricity, electric vehicles, green steel, hydrogen and sustainable farming. The aim is to make these affordable and available to all nations by 2030 and create 20m new jobs.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ternatives
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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:44 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:33 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:30 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:48 pm
These are a couple of good pieces on the announcements so far.

Global Methane Pledge
The pledge is an agreement to cut methane emissions by 30% between 2020 and 2030.
The TL:DR is that cutting methane is good - it has caused about 0.5°C of global warming - but it's a gas with a short half-life (around a decade) so this is a short-term win and can't be allowed to distract from our terrible record of cutting CO2 emissions, which have a very long half-life and will affect our climate for centuries to come.
The flip-side of this is that methane is a gas with a climate forcing 20+% that of CO2 during it's half-life, after which it breaks down into CO2 anyway. So a given unit of methane is worth about 20x the effort in reduction. There's plenty of very easy wins to be had in this department, so this pledge is setting much-needed political groundwork. It'll give activist lawyers plenty of grist for the mill as well.
An adjacent story I saw was that the West Texas oil and gas fields leak enough methane to supply 2/3 of Texas's domestic usage of natural gas. Which is an astonishing waste of potential profits, if nothing else.

Admittedly, Texas doesn't use nearly as much natural gas per home as the UK or New England, as the winters are much warmer and the population sparser, with electric heat more common.
Yes, I was shocked to read about the scale of wastage from fossil fields - a huge wodge of climate forcing that not even making anybody money (though of course there are large cost savings). If nothing else it's a useful reminder that fossil fuels also have huge climate externalities, not just green tech: shutting down a gas field saves more than just the usable gas.
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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:46 pm

The weird thing is that this methane thing focuses on inspecting pipelines rather than cows. Agriculture is an incredibly powerful lobby, no doubt in part because of the strong cultural power of both food and landscapes.

eta link https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... 30-percent
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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:53 pm

One thing I really want to see come out of this is stronger climate regulation. Background: https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ress-tests

Globally it's rare for listed businesses to have to declare climate risks to financial regulators. There is a huge bubble of unburnable carbon assets just waiting to burst - much of the billionaire class is set on derailing the climate movement to win time to sell their assets off quietly and squeeze out some last profits.

Recent rulings, e.g. the Royal Dutch Shell case, have established that businesses can be held responsible for the consequences of producing fossil-fuel assets. Legislation could lead on this, by holding fossil-fuel producers and financiers legally responsible for those consequences explicitly, without the time-consuming necessity of recourse to the creative jurisprudence of activist lawyers.

Cut off capital for fossil developments and you choke the problem at its source. The market could lead with providing alternatives.
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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:09 pm

Greta did what most young people do when they meet up with friends in Glasgow. I genuinely like the song. https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... op26-video

She's fantastic.
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Re: COP26

Post by Martin Y » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:51 pm

My sister said the gas man said his brother who's a copper is minding one of the hotels COP26 delegates are using. And they have electric buses to carry the delegates around. But they don't have the charging capacity to charge them all up. So they brought in diesel generators.

That's what the gas man said, anyhow.

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Re: COP26

Post by Gfamily » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:55 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:51 pm
My sister said the gas man said his brother who's a copper is minding one of the hotels COP26 delegates are using. And they have electric buses to carry the delegates around. But they don't have the charging capacity to charge them all up. So they brought in diesel generators.

That's what the gas man said, anyhow.
I read something similar for the charging of the Teslas they are using to transport the people staying at Gleneagles Hotel.
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Re: COP26

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:35 pm

It's plausible. The nascent electric car network surely isn't ready for sudden over-capacity events.

That's pretty much the point of the talks - welcome.
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