How the British are perceived overseas

[plodder]

I think you've missed the point of the thread. It isn't about whether people think Britain is a nice country to live in. It's how we're perceived as a culture - as a nation, or race if you will.

eta ninja'd by your latest. This thread isn't about whether we're better than other nations, or worse. I accept that the British are looked up to my many cultures and that's relevant.

[sheldrake]

I think you've missed the point of the thread. It isn't about whether people think Britain is a nice country to live in. It's how we're perceived as a culture - as a nation, or race if you will.

I do see the point of the thread, but I dont believe the two questions are that separate. People dont just come here for money, but for the way we live and treat each other. Is it perfect? far from it, but I know an awful lot of good people from asia, the former ussr and africa who frankly love it here and have put down roots, despite its flaws.

Have a look at Afua Hirsch’s biography for a good example of an anti-British oxford educated privileged middle class corbynist having a rude awakening when they try and live in real modern day Africa after convincing herself everybody would be so much nicer than the savage brits she grew up around.

Eta Tldr; turns out british men arent nearly the ogres she thought they were, now that she’s gotten out in the world and done a real comparison. Shes back. Still moaning about it on TV and charging a lot to appear as celebrity speaker for corporate diversity training mind.. but I think she’s figured out this is one of the few places in the world where she wouldnt be hauled in front of a court for that.

[dyqik]

And when you had to prioritise all those things, guess which you chose.

I’m sure you’re about to ‘no but…’ any minute now.

You aren't even trying to make sense now. This is just antagonistic b.llsh.t aimed at derailing a serious discussion.

Absolutely not. The discussion is about how the UK is perceived overseas. We begin with a crime report. I commiserate but point out that thankfully a lot of people still want to come to live in the UK, with survey data.

I introduce the genera concept that people’s preferences about countries can be somewhat understood by looking at how they migrate. I give a free and prosperous country with elections and strong freedom of speech vs a poor communist dictatorship as an example of the principle at work. You poo-poo this and waffle about language barriers distorting things so much we cant put any store in where people choose to live. I ask for data demonstrating this and you start blustering…

So in other words, you didn't even try to consider confounding factors to your hypothesis and failed to do any real work to support it, and just attacked any suggestion that complications are well known to exist with demands far in excess of any evidence you've presented.

[dyqik]

Oh yes, and that survey was carried out in the other G20 countries - many of them quite like Britain in economy and with four of them having English as a primary language.

With apologies to others, I'm stopping now as this particular discussion has nothing to do with this thread.

[sheldrake]

So in other words, you didn't even try to consider confounding factors to your hypothesis

Sure, but I don't take your insistence that something is a confounding factor as fact when you won't present any support.

failed to do any real work to support it, and just attacked any suggestion that complications are well known to exist with demands far in excess of any evidence you've presented.

Well known? You really are just trying to argue by insisting something is true here. Convince me with data. It's your own suggestion.

Eta; ah, I see you're huffing off in silence when called out on your bluster.

[secret squirrel]

You have to distinguish between how people perceive a country as a place to live, and how they perceive it as a place to not live. For example, if you live in the USA your chance of being murdered during a CIA sponsored far right coup has historically been far lower than if you live in South or Central America. If you were Kenyan in the 1950s your chance of being murdered or put in a concentration camp by British soldiers would be significantly lower if you migrated to the UK than if you stayed in Kenya. Poor people migrating to rich countries that exploit them with physical violence and economic thuggery is not an endorsement of the rich societies. The more British soldiers are able to commit unpunished murders in Kenya, for example, the more desirable it is for Kenyans to live in the UK rather than Kenya.

[WFJ]

You also have to distinguish between how Britons and "the British" are perceived overseas. I do not think any simple metrics can be used to make arguments in either direction here.

[sheldrake]

You have to distinguish between how people perceive a country as a place to live, and how they perceive it as a place to not live. For example, if you live in the USA your chance of being murdered during a CIA sponsored far right coup has historically been far lower than if you live in South or Central America. If you were Kenyan in the 1950s your chance of being murdered or put in a concentration camp by British soldiers would be significantly lower if you migrated to the UK than if you stayed in Kenya. Poor people migrating to rich countries that exploit them with physical violence and economic thuggery is not an endorsement of the rich societies. The more British soldiers are able to commit unpunished murders in Kenya, for example, the more desirable it is for Kenyans to live in the UK rather than Kenya.

I should be clear that I dont believe there’s a world where people in Kenyan are happy about whats happened, but they will have many problems from right at home to compare and contrast. One of the nutty characteristics of Corbynism was that it focussed entirely on the injustices committed by western democracies whilst excusing horrific local oligarchies and dictatorships on the grounds that they were either fellow traveller leftists, or because to do so seemed anti-racist. If you lived in Kenya you’d experience plenty of local brutalities and injustices too.

[Woodchopper]

Its a very complicated question as individuals don't usually have a single perception about other peoples.

Just based upon personal experience its possible for a Kenyan or a Bangladeshi to be very angry about the imperial exploitation of their country or actions of rapacious multinationals, and also be attracted to aspects of contemporary British culture (eg watching every episode of a TV show again and again, regularly reading British news sources online or passionately supporting a football club).

People are able to take the bits they like and reject the bits they don't.

[sheldrake]

Kenyans also experience regular extra-judicial killings and 'disappearances' from their own government and the Al-Shabab terrorist group
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/c ... ters/kenya

If you came from such a world, you might think most 'leaders' were complete c.nts to be distrusted but pleasantly surprised to find out that in the UK people at least didn't get 'disappeared' for speaking out against the ruling party. I'm not saying we shouldn't keep trying to be better, but lets not veer off into self-flagellation without making some realistic comparisons first. Big swathes of the developing world are ruled by complete f.cking loonies who make the worst stuff to happen in or because of the UK this last century look pretty tame.

[Lew Dolby]

That seems dangerously close to the "the UK must be good because there are other places that are worse" argument.

[plodder]

There's only one person on the thread getting excited about self flagellation.

Everyone else seems to understand the last verse of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/robertburns/works/to_a_louse/

[plodder]

Kenyans also experience regular extra-judicial killings and 'disappearances' from their own government and the Al-Shabab terrorist group
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/c ... ters/kenya

If you came from such a world, you might think most 'leaders' were complete c.nts to be distrusted but pleasantly surprised to find out that in the UK people at least didn't get 'disappeared' for speaking out against the ruling party. I'm not saying we shouldn't keep trying to be better, but lets not veer off into self-flagellation without making some realistic comparisons first. Big swathes of the developing world are ruled by complete f.cking loonies who make the worst stuff to happen in or because of the UK this last century look pretty tame.

Big swathes of the developing world blame big swathes of their current problems on big swathes of historic British policy. If you want to talk about Al-Shabab, for example, 2 seconds on google will find pretty compelling narratives linking them to the infamous straight lines on a map that caused such chaos in Africa in the 1950s and 60s, e.g.

https://owaahh.com/shifta-war-to-al-shabaab/

[sheldrake]

Big swathes of the developing world blame big swathes of their current problems on big swathes of historic British policy.

Big swathes of the developing world are run by kleptocrats who want to continue to blame their own state failures on things that happened 60+ years ago, too.

If you want to talk about Al-Shabab, for example, 2 seconds on google will find pretty compelling narratives linking them to the infamous straight lines on a map that caused such chaos in Africa in the 1950s and 60s, e.g.

https://owaahh.com/shifta-war-to-al-shabaab/

I am a big fan of this book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Affairs ... 1846687640

Colonial Europe certainly did many wicked things, but the members of Al Shabaab are not hapless pawns without agency. They make conscious and horrific choices of their own. There's an element of accountability evasion (and lingering cold war propaganda) in some of the modern anti-colonialist narratives, and I don't think any good will come of enabling it.

[sheldrake]

That seems dangerously close to the "the UK must be good because there are other places that are worse" argument.

Actually, that is what I'm saying. Compared to a theoretical utopia, we made many mistakes and have a long way to go. Comparing the UK to much of the rest of the world, it's a haven of liberalism and fair law. People like Corbyn are dangerous precisely because they're so focussed on achieving these theoretical utopias by any means and don't stop to consider not only how things could be better, but how they could have been so much worse.

That's exactly how he finds himself in these absurd positions where he condemns the UK as an instrument of evil whilst embracing actual islamist and marxist murderers as friends. People who would be absolutely happy rounding up homosexuals and killing them or putting them in labour camps.

[Lew Dolby]

but "being better than crap" isn't really much to brag about.

[sheldrake]

but "being better than crap" isn't really much to brag about.

I'm not really bragging, just presenting a more balanced view. A lot depends on your perspective. It took serious effort, sometimes actual heroism, to come as far as we have.

[IvanV]

I know several Germans who live in Britain. Most have no intention of leaving. But our former next door neighbours, a German family who took out British nationality, have moved back to Germany after about 15 years here.

They often complain about how disorganised Britain is, and badly run. But what they generally like is the less conservative outlook on life, and, believe it or not, simpler to do things. They are usually people of a lifestyle such that they feel uncomfortable in socially conservative Germany. And for most of them this has been a dealbreaker, why they have stayed here.

My German neighbour started applying for jobs in Germany after the Brexit vote, as he was scared how much it might cost him to send his children to university - he had 3 more to get through, and expected them to want to go to a continental university, given their background - the first one went to Rotterdam. He didn't get any suitable job offers for a couple of years, such that it would be better just to pay any additional university fees. And then one of them eventually came back with a vastly improved offer he couldn't refuse, so they left.

He says that the main thing that deters him from coming back to Britain to settle again is the utter crapness of our health service. They were repeately let down badly by it, including nearly killing one of his children by forgetting to give her part of her treatment for 2 weeks. Additionally social services is an issue for them. His 5th child has Downs, and they get much better social services for her in Germany, albeit that the bureacracy to achieve it is even worse than Britain.

My wife is Czech. She likes living in Britain. The main things she likes are: she couldn't possibly enjoy a similar standard of living in Czech given her trade as a teacher; the variety of scenery - Czech is nice but much more samey than here; the multicultural nature of Britain - in Czech they have a Vietnamese minority and that's about it. Czech generally rates high for quality of life on European indicators. Support for lower income households is (relative to cost of living) much better than here. Children enjoy a childhood without excessive pressures - start school at 7, flexible according to their development. I have met a few British people living there who are exceedingly happy; and I know a couple of my University friends went there and never came back.

The main thing my wife complains about Britain is the utter crapness of our health service. It is far from perfect in Czech. But they at least have enough doctors you can see one when you want to, and enough equipment like scanners that you can have a scan when you need one.

A Dutch person I know similarly said the thing that drew her here was the ability to get a decent standard of living. She studied at a musical conservatoire, but wasn't going to be a star. She wasn't prepared to work anti-social hours to remain near the poverty line, as is the lot of the jobbing musician. So she got a well-paid job in the City, which she says she would never have got anything at all similar in the Netherlands, as qualifications matter much more for what jobs you can do there. She satisfies her musical urges through amateur events - she is much sought after for that.

So, the main conclusion I draw from this small sample is:
- Britain is a nice place to live if you value diversity and a less socially conservative society, on the whole
- Some people can have a much higher standard of living here, as it is easier to get a well-paid job better matched to your abilities
- The main deterrent is our utterly crap health service. It's great if you come from a less developed country, but not if you come from the Continent.

[Lew Dolby]

but "being better than crap" isn't really much to brag about.

I'm not really bragging, just presenting a more balanced view. A lot depends on your perspective. It took serious effort, sometimes actual heroism, to come as far as we have.

Simply making the general point - not accusing you. But, so often, this argument is used for not trying to improve.

[sheldrake]

but "being better than crap" isn't really much to brag about.

I'm not really bragging, just presenting a more balanced view. A lot depends on your perspective. It took serious effort, sometimes actual heroism, to come as far as we have.

Simply making the general point - not accusing you. But, so often, this argument is used for not trying to improve.

Yes, it is. There's a danger to the opposite approach too; you can demoralize and fragment a society by constantly telling its members that they should be ashamed of their culture and ancestors (as the token right wing nut on the board I already see obvious signs of this in the UK), and kleptocracy in the developing world has been enabled in part by an ongoing victim narrative that was partly fostered by cold war propaganda. People like Mugabe need a scapegoat.

[plodder]

Big swathes of the developing world blame big swathes of their current problems on big swathes of historic British policy.

Big swathes of the developing world are run by kleptocrats who want to continue to blame their own state failures on things that happened 60+ years ago, too.

If you want to talk about Al-Shabab, for example, 2 seconds on google will find pretty compelling narratives linking them to the infamous straight lines on a map that caused such chaos in Africa in the 1950s and 60s, e.g.

https://owaahh.com/shifta-war-to-al-shabaab/

I am a big fan of this book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Affairs ... 1846687640

Colonial Europe certainly did many wicked things, but the members of Al Shabaab are not hapless pawns without agency. They make conscious and horrific choices of their own. There's an element of accountability evasion (and lingering cold war propaganda) in some of the modern anti-colonialist narratives, and I don't think any good will come of enabling it.

You literally just linked to a book about Britain meddling in foreign affairs whilst trying to maintain that Britain meddling in foreign affairs is not something worth considering. Or something.

[sheldrake]

You literally just linked to a book about Britain meddling in foreign affairs

Yes I did.

whilst trying to maintain that Britain meddling in foreign affairs is not something worth considering.

That's not what I'm saying though. I'm suggesting its doesn't give a clear perspective if you only consider the bad. Britain addicted millions of chinese people to opium and subverted Islam to control leaders who wouldn't bow to our trade agendas but it also sacrificed to end the Atlantic slave trade and taught people wives shouldn't commit suicide on their husbands pyre. Teaching people the Hirsch/Corbyn one-dimensional view has all kinds of unhealthy knock-on effects.

[jimbob]

Thanks Fishnut. I think the British (and English especially) are even more blind to their colonial legacy than, say, the Russians or Americans.

I also think we’re the masters of the cover up. Most people in the UK have never even heard of the Mau Mau, let alone know we were running concentration camps in the 1950s. But I do think it’s common knowledge in the rest of the world.

Exacty.

Kenyans also experience regular extra-judicial killings and 'disappearances' from their own government and the Al-Shabab terrorist group
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/c ... ters/kenya

If you came from such a world, you might think most 'leaders' were complete c.nts to be distrusted but pleasantly surprised to find out that in the UK people at least didn't get 'disappeared' for speaking out against the ruling party. I'm not saying we shouldn't keep trying to be better, but lets not veer off into self-flagellation without making some realistic comparisons first. Big swathes of the developing world are ruled by complete f.cking loonies who make the worst stuff to happen in or because of the UK this last century look pretty tame.

What has Kenya's problems got to do with the fact that the British Army is harbouring someone who is almost certainly a rapist and murderer.

At least one time, and possibly other times as well.

[sheldrake]

What has Kenya's problems got to do with the fact that the British Army is harbouring someone who is almost certainly a rapist and murderer.

At least one time, and possibly other times as well.

The thread isn't just about a single crime, it's about 'How the British are perceived overseas'

[nekomatic]

True.

As such I am rather more interested in learning more about how the British are perceived overseas than I am in reading arguments about why the overseas people (most of whom are not reading this thread) are wrong.