Benefits of Brexit for Britain

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plodder
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm

:roll:

I literally just did explain it. You snipped it out of your reply. You're creating work for the mods, bitching about people arguing in bad faith whilst being blind to the fact that you are literally impossible to have a conversation with if it's not obsequious agreement.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:42 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm
:roll:

I literally just did explain it. You snipped it out of your reply. You're creating work for the mods, bitching about people arguing in bad faith whilst being blind to the fact that you are literally impossible to have a conversation with if it's not obsequious agreement.
Edited to clarify question-
But you didnt explain it. You just stated an assertion that it had nothing to do with the EU and then refused to answer a question about that when I asked why you thought things had changed since we joined the EU. Our regulations did not used to look like the way they do today

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:45 pm

I also think its unfair to say I refuse to have a discussion unless people agree. I’ve said ‘yes, you are right’ numerous times, and changed my views on some fairly broad topics.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:52 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:42 pm
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm
:roll:

I literally just did explain it. You snipped it out of your reply. You're creating work for the mods, bitching about people arguing in bad faith whilst being blind to the fact that you are literally impossible to have a conversation with if it's not obsequious agreement.
Edited to clarify question-
But you didnt explain it. You just stated an assertion that it had nothing to do with the EU and then refused to answer a question about that when I asked why you thought things had changed since we joined the EU. Our regulations did not used to look like the way they do today
Just f.cking read the bit about arms length departments and silos, eh?

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:56 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:52 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:42 pm
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm
:roll:

I literally just did explain it. You snipped it out of your reply. You're creating work for the mods, bitching about people arguing in bad faith whilst being blind to the fact that you are literally impossible to have a conversation with if it's not obsequious agreement.
Edited to clarify question-
But you didnt explain it. You just stated an assertion that it had nothing to do with the EU and then refused to answer a question about that when I asked why you thought things had changed since we joined the EU. Our regulations did not used to look like the way they do today
Just f.cking read the bit about arms length departments and silos, eh?
You’re going to be cross again, but I did read it and my question was in response; ‘why wasnt this producing broken regs before we joined the EU’?

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by Gfamily » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:09 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:52 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:42 pm
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm
:roll:

I literally just did explain it. You snipped it out of your reply. You're creating work for the mods, bitching about people arguing in bad faith whilst being blind to the fact that you are literally impossible to have a conversation with if it's not obsequious agreement.
Edited to clarify question-
But you didnt explain it. You just stated an assertion that it had nothing to do with the EU and then refused to answer a question about that when I asked why you thought things had changed since we joined the EU. Our regulations did not used to look like the way they do today
Just f.cking read the bit about arms length departments and silos, eh?
It would be interesting* to know whether <picks a non EU country>, say, Canadian regulations relating to the insurance industry have changed over the last 45 years.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
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Woodchopper
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:15 pm

I doubt very much that there was a significant increase in regulation which occurred in the years after the UK joined the EU in 1974.

Thinking back to the early 80s, it was very commonly asserted back then that the UK had an overreaching government that interfered far to much in business and people's everyday lives. One of the central arguments of Thatcherism was that the state has to be rolled back. Privatization was one aspect, but at least in terms of rhetoric the Thatcher government claimed to be engaged cutting back regulations. But people then weren't talking about new regulations that had been introduced over the past ten years or so. They were complaining about a UK government that had built up its control over their lives over decades.

In terms of the history of the extent of the British state, we are looking at a massive expansion of government control over the economy between 1914 and 1950. That control was implemented via nationalization, and via heavy regulation of the parts of the economy that remained in private ownership. Then in the 80s and onwards the process was partially reversed, with state assets being privatized, but they weren't nearly as successful in actually cutting back the regulations.

So it seems to me that if you are looking for a period in which there was a regulatory light touch in Britain, you're going to have to go back to the 1930s, or even the 1910s.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:23 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:09 pm

It would be interesting* to know whether <picks a non EU country>, say, Canadian regulations relating to the insurance industry have changed over the last 45 years.
Changed, or exploded in magnitude?

Here is a view on the impact of EU regulation of telecoms by a former europhile who gradually became a brexiter. They're an economist specialising in impact of telecoms regulation, and work as a vice president for a UK telco.
Barney Lane wrote: My entire career has been made in understanding and applying EU regulation in one sector — Telecoms. I don’t understand all of it, despite 20 years of specialisation.

My experience of one sector has shown me that it’s quite impossible to understand EU regulation in more than one very small area. It’s too complex. Understanding enough to comment intelligibly on one sector requires a dedicated expert. I could name about four EU telecoms regulations that (in my opinion) are economically damaging in the UK, but I won’t here because it wouldn’t mean much to readers.

Ok well if you insist, the problematic ones are: Directive 2002/21/EC (articles 13a and 13b); Directive 2014/61/EU (all of it); Directive 2008/114/EC (all of it); and Recommendation 2014/710/EU (the annex).

Yet, I do believe the EU approach to regulation is one of its very greatest weaknesses and one of the areas where the UK has most to gain by leaving. How can I say that when I only understand one sector in detail? I hope the following will explain:

EU regulation is so complex that it requires career specialists to understand it for a single sector. Telecoms companies employ armies of such people.

At my company, I’m in charge of the team responsible for regulation. There are 10 of us. Sometimes, we get involved in an activity that requires specialist understanding of a particular part of regulation that's outside my knowledge and understanding. For that, we will hire a consultancy. At larger telcos like BT, there will be about 300 such people. A regulatory system that’s so complex and difficult to understand is just madness.

EU regulation has completely changed the UK’s regulatory culture. Before the massive upsurge in regulation that occurred in the 1990s following the Maastricht Treaty, I was a young economics graduate working for a consultancy that specialised in advising about 100 different clients on the impact of regulation across every sector. Regulation in the UK used to be explicable using a few basic principles that were grounded in economic policy. That would never be possible today.

A new EU regulatory corpus typically requires the creation of a new quango full of civil servants whose job it is to apply and enforce it. The burdens on business of complying with regulation are huge, extremely costly and encourage risk averse behaviour
Compliance burdens discourage start ups and therefore, competition. Any start up wanting to enter a market that’s regulated by the EU would have to employ the equivalent of someone like me, for their sector. (We don’t come cheap). In many sectors, this limits competition to the small number of large companies that can afford the services of regulatory specialists. It’s often said that, depending on the sector, a new start up may have to navigate its way through 120,000 pages of EU regulation. This does not surprise me in the least
EU regulation is much more cumbersome than UK regulation was before it. The UK approach (that existed before the 1990s), as I said, is grounded in basic principles, derived from economic policy. As long as you understood the principles and behaved in a common sense way, you were fine. Although I qualified as an economist, specialising in EU regulation has made my job more akin to that of a lawyer
The EU’s approach to regulation is self perpetuating. Much of it requires the country to set up a new (tax payer funded) regulator. Regulation is what regulators do. Create a new regulator and one thing you can be certain of, is that you have begotten a highly creative source of regulatory incontinence.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by Gfamily » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:31 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:23 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:09 pm

It would be interesting* to know whether <picks a non EU country>, say, Canadian regulations relating to the insurance industry have changed over the last 45 years.
Changed, or exploded in magnitude?

Here is a view on the impact of EU regulation of telecoms
Barney Lane wrote: ...
You mentioned insurance. Do you think that Canadian regulations for the insurance market are about the same as they were in the early 70s?
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:35 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:31 pm

You mentioned insurance. Do you think that Canadian regulations for the insurance market are about the same as they were in the early 70s?
I doubt they're the same, but I honestly don't know whether they've exploded in volume like ours. What did you make of Barney Lane's commentary on the effect of Maastricht on telecom regs? I expect similar effects on multiple sectors that we can gradually unpick

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:44 pm

Barney Lane wrote: EU regulation is much more cumbersome than UK regulation was before it. The UK approach (that existed before the 1990s), as I said, is grounded in basic principles, derived from economic policy. As long as you understood the principles and behaved in a common sense way, you were fine. Although I qualified as an economist, specialising in EU regulation has made my job more akin to that of a lawyer
The EU’s approach to regulation is self perpetuating. Much of it requires the country to set up a new (tax payer funded) regulator. Regulation is what regulators do. Create a new regulator and one thing you can be certain of, is that you have begotten a highly creative source of regulatory incontinence.

Plodder, does this tally with your experience in civil eng and environmental? My hypothesis here is not that you were being untruthful about your experience, just that EU membership made changes to the way regulation was produced before you started having to directly deal with the process, back in the 90s.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 pm

Are we talking about the amount of new regulations, or the way the UK chose to implement them?

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by Gfamily » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:35 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:31 pm

You mentioned insurance. Do you think that Canadian regulations for the insurance market are about the same as they were in the early 70s?
I doubt they're the same, but I honestly don't know whether they've exploded in volume like ours. What did you make of Barney Lane's commentary on the effect of Maastricht on telecom regs? I expect similar effects on multiple sectors that we can gradually unpick
So you don't know , yet you claim that the EU is the main cause of the increased complexity in regulation.
You may not have noticed, but the telecoms industry has become a smidge more complicated since 1990, so claiming it's "All the EU" is just you being you. Again!.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:55 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 pm
Are we talking about the amount of new regulations, or the way the UK chose to implement them?
It seems like they've both changed, from what I've read. What was particularly interesting in Barney Lane's commentary was the way EU regulation seems to have created and empowered a whole new regulatory class in the UK.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:01 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 pm

So you don't know , yet you claim that the EU is the main cause of the increased complexity in regulation.
You may not have noticed, but the telecoms industry has become a smidge more complicated since 1990, so claiming it's "All the EU" is just you being you. Again!.
No, it's me reading expert sources which I've shared with you, and which you seem to have ignored.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:12 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:55 pm
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 pm
Are we talking about the amount of new regulations, or the way the UK chose to implement them?
It seems like they've both changed, from what I've read. What was particularly interesting in Barney Lane's commentary was the way EU regulation seems to have created and empowered a whole new regulatory class in the UK.
is that because the EU created more new rules than the UK would have done, and has the UK made those rules more complicated than they needed to be, and is there anything about the EU that dictated the UK’s internal relationship between the executive and the civil service to be more or less dysfunctional than it would have otherwise been? Should we all share moany blog posts from old timers?

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:14 pm

“when I was young, work felt so full of excitement and possibility...”

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:16 pm

There's a lot there plodder. Where would you like me to start?

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by Gfamily » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:17 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:01 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 pm

So you don't know , yet you claim that the EU is the main cause of the increased complexity in regulation.
You may not have noticed, but the telecoms industry has become a smidge more complicated since 1990, so claiming it's "All the EU" is just you being you. Again!.
No, it's me reading expert sources which I've shared with you, and which you seem to have ignored.
You are passing on the thoughts of an economist who got pissed off at the increasingly complex world of the telecoms market and is now a brexiteer.
You need to demonstrate that the complexity is entirely due to EU insistence.

As someone who works in the insurance market, I can tell you that companies withdrew from the US insurance market because of the complexity demanded by Sarbanes Oxley. UK leaving the EU does not make it easier for us to expand our insurance industry in USA or elsewhere because there are comparable regulatory requirements (often more onerous ones) to be met if they want to operate in other markets.

The world gets more complicated, and if you only listen to 'experts' who blame the EU then no wonder you get laughed at.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:41 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:16 pm
There's a lot there plodder. Where would you like me to start?
They are all points I’ve already raised. You don’t have answers. In many cases this stuff is so impenetrable there are no simple answers. The point is that your grand narrative doesn’t work.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:47 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:41 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:16 pm
There's a lot there plodder. Where would you like me to start?
They are all points I’ve already raised. You don’t have answers. In many cases this stuff is so impenetrable there are no simple answers. The point is that your grand narrative doesn’t work.
If you say so plodder. I think you're wasting opportunities because you refuse to see any of this as an opportunity.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:22 pm

A new free port opened in Teeside https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tees ... r-business
The freeport has already secured multimillion pound investment from GE Renewables to build a new offshore wind blade manufacturing plant which they estimate will deliver up to 750 manufacturing jobs and a further 1,500 roles in the supply chain.

These blades will supply the world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Dogger Bank, helping to power millions of UK homes, and the government has also committed an additional £20 million to create a new deep-water quay to service the offshore wind industry.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:38 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:22 pm
A new free port opened in Teeside https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tees ... r-business
The freeport has already secured multimillion pound investment from GE Renewables to build a new offshore wind blade manufacturing plant which they estimate will deliver up to 750 manufacturing jobs and a further 1,500 roles in the supply chain.

These blades will supply the world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Dogger Bank, helping to power millions of UK homes, and the government has also committed an additional £20 million to create a new deep-water quay to service the offshore wind industry.
How is this a benefit of Brexit? Freeports have existed in the UK since the 1980s.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:44 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:38 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:22 pm
A new free port opened in Teeside https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tees ... r-business
The freeport has already secured multimillion pound investment from GE Renewables to build a new offshore wind blade manufacturing plant which they estimate will deliver up to 750 manufacturing jobs and a further 1,500 roles in the supply chain.

These blades will supply the world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Dogger Bank, helping to power millions of UK homes, and the government has also committed an additional £20 million to create a new deep-water quay to service the offshore wind industry.
How is this a benefit of Brexit? Freeports have existed in the UK since the 1980s.
As an EU member You cant create new ones without the approval of the EU commission so even if allowed the whole process would’ve taken much longer and probably involved some horse trading. This is state aid.

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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:30 pm

£20M won’t get you much of a deepwater quay, by the way

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