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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:41 am
by discovolante
IvanV wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:28 am
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:15 am
Whether or not Kyle Rittenhouse would have been acquitted here I dunno.
Clearly his actions would have got him many years in prison in Britain, even if he was acquitted of both murder and manslaughter, because of the extremely serious and aggravated nature of the firearms offence as British law would see it.

The mere fact of intentionally having a loaded gun with you at a demonstration in Britain would probably be sufficiently "negligent" to pass a manslaughter negligence test in Britain, even if the gun went off accidentally.

But really it's an impossible question to ask whether he would have been acquitted of various homicide offences in Britain, because precisely the same situation - including the crucial state of mind that matters for such offences - cannot occur. Someone who takes such a gun to a demonstration in Britain, where it is utterly illegal, cannot possibly be in remotely the same state of mind as someone who does it in the USA. There were apparently quite a few people carrying firearms at that demo, because people do routinely carry firearms in some parts of the USA.
I think the context of my post would have indicated that I was talking specifically about the homicide/murder charges, and not general firearms offences.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:12 pm
by IvanV
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:41 am
I think the context of my post would have indicated that I was talking specifically about the homicide/murder charges, and not general firearms offences.
Did you read past my first sentence?

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:24 pm
by discovolante
IvanV wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:12 pm
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:41 am
I think the context of my post would have indicated that I was talking specifically about the homicide/murder charges, and not general firearms offences.
Did you read past my first sentence?
Yes.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:18 pm
by snoozeofreason
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:15 am
Whether or not Kyle Rittenhouse would have been acquitted here I dunno.
I suppose it might be easier, in the UK, to argue that someone who left home with a gun over their shoulder had an intention to use it. Over here, it's not really something that you would take with you just on the off-chance that it might come in handy, but I get the impression that some USians will pick up a gun with as little thought as I would give to stuffing my phone in my pocket when I walk out the door.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:42 pm
by discovolante
snoozeofreason wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:18 pm
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:15 am
Whether or not Kyle Rittenhouse would have been acquitted here I dunno.
I suppose it might be easier, in the UK, to argue that someone who left home with a gun over their shoulder had an intention to use it. Over here, it's not really something that you would take with you just on the off-chance that it might come in handy, but I get the impression that some USians will pick up a gun with as little thought as I would give to stuffing my phone in my pocket when I walk out the door.
True although I was thinking of it more as an 'all other things being equal' situation re the actual self defence defence.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:55 pm
by monkey
snoozeofreason wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:18 pm
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:15 am
Whether or not Kyle Rittenhouse would have been acquitted here I dunno.
I suppose it might be easier, in the UK, to argue that someone who left home with a gun over their shoulder had an intention to use it. Over here, it's not really something that you would take with you just on the off-chance that it might come in handy, but I get the impression that some USians will pick up a gun with as little thought as I would give to stuffing my phone in my pocket when I walk out the door.
I don't think it's that little thought - they might not be allowed to take the gun where they're going, which doesn't normally happen with mobiles. But yeah, lots of people have a gun on them almost always. Often its people you wouldn't expect if you believe the stereotypes too. And it depends on where you are for how common it would be. The only people I have seen open carry are the police and security guards, I'd probably only know if someone has a gun if they tell me.

I think there'd be more people carrying something 'non-lethal' like pepper spray or a taser in any crowd. But I bet there's a gender imbalance with what's carried by who. Lots of people would have a knife on them, but that's normally a small one mostly intended to be used for cutting stuff rather than people.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:22 pm
by snoozeofreason
discovolante wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:42 pm
snoozeofreason wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:18 pm
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:15 am
Whether or not Kyle Rittenhouse would have been acquitted here I dunno.
I suppose it might be easier, in the UK, to argue that someone who left home with a gun over their shoulder had an intention to use it. Over here, it's not really something that you would take with you just on the off-chance that it might come in handy, but I get the impression that some USians will pick up a gun with as little thought as I would give to stuffing my phone in my pocket when I walk out the door.
True although I was thinking of it more as an 'all other things being equal' situation re the actual self defence defence.
I suppose that, in order to get to an 'all other things being equal' situation you would need to do a thought experiment where you imagine that the UK changed its laws and culture so as to normalise the carrying of weapons, but kept its existing definition of self-defence. In such a situation it's hard to see how someone in Rittenhouse's situation could be convicted of an offence. Guidance on self-defence places emphasis on the words of Lord Morris
"If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken ..."
It also makes clear that there is no rule in law to say that a person must wait to be struck first before they may defend themselves.

So if Rittenhouse "honestly and instinctively" thought that his weapon might be taken from him and used against him, or that the people pursuing him might have weapons of their own that they could use on him, it would be lawful to act pre-emptively to prevent that happening - even if, in the cold light of day, the risk wasn't as great as he had perceived. It would be up to the prosecution to prove that Rittenhouse's belief was not honest and instinctive, and they would be unable to make the argument that someone carrying a gun had criminal intentions because they had already committed a criminal act by arming themselves. Luckily we in the UK do not live in the parallel world of my thought experiment but, if we did, it's hard to see how a conviction could be obtained.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:41 pm
by Al Capone Junior
Just a quick anecdotal observation here:

Having spent many years in states where gun-nut culture and its practitioners are commonplace, I have yet to meet or see any black ppl that would fit into this category. I'm sure they exist, but gun-nuts are mostly white, as far as I can tell. Also Christians a large % of the time.

Also, while there may be exceptions, I have yet to talk to any gun-nuts that truly carry on a great conversation. I speculate that the reason for this is that enlightenment, reasonableness and/or a scientific mindset are neither common nor valued in this culture.

I say speculate, but probably enough data points to raise both of these observations to the level of hypothesis that has yet to be falsified.

I would also place my bets on each and every one of these idiotic gun laws we're dealing with now were written and passed by legislators that were almost completely white male repugnicans.

The gun-nut culture results in tens of thousands of deaths every year in the US. These deaths just don't occur in most other non gun-nut countries. Members of this mindset really don't even recognize this as a phenominon, let alone a problem.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:01 pm
by Al Capone Junior
And just to clarify for you non-merkins...

There are a LOT of ppl running around with loaded guns here. Not slung over your shoulder rifles, that is actually quite rare, but concealed hand guns. Open carry is more the exception; concealed is the norm. And trivial things like swords, brass knuckles and such were green lighted (in tx) back in 2017*.

Tx recently passed the "any idiot" law, green lighting lots more right wing Christian radical state-ist zealots to carry concealed gloks and 17-shot clip berettas without training or permit.

Anyone with any sense should realize that anyone at anytime could pull out a loaded hand gun for any reason.

And if you think that who gets to check out first at Walmart on black Friday can't possibly be one of those any reasons... well you haven't been paying attention. Demonstrations and protests will see more of the open carry or slung over shoulder types, but there will still be be plenty of concealed handguns.

And lots of new laws make it much easier for these untrained trump thumping morons to make hasty, irreversible decisions in a real hurry, and not expect any serious consequences**.

But what, fundamentally, does having a loaded hand gun do for you?

It allows you "to make hasty, irreversible decisions in a real hurry."

Just thought I'd clear that up for you.

*now remember, it's only firearms that are illegal to take into the bar with you. :shock: To be fair, most big concerts and some clubs and events will screen you for non-firearm weapons too before letting you in. But many public places and events don't screen for anything

**especially if you're white and the dead guy is black. Expect a rubber stamp of "good to go" there

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:45 am
by Woodchopper
Kyle Rittenhouse is introduced at the Young Women’s Leadership Summit as the ideal catch for a husband: “I want to talk a lot about what kind of man you should be attracted to .. Men’s #1 goal is to protect your family .. and Kyle Rittenhouse is a man who does that.”
https://twitter.com/ronfilipkowski/stat ... bZZX14ybpw

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse acquitted of all charges

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:18 am
by Grumble
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:45 am
Kyle Rittenhouse is introduced at the Young Women’s Leadership Summit as the ideal catch for a husband: “I want to talk a lot about what kind of man you should be attracted to .. Men’s #1 goal is to protect your family .. and Kyle Rittenhouse is a man who does that.”
https://twitter.com/ronfilipkowski/stat ... bZZX14ybpw
That’s men’s #1 goal is it? Maybe in a society that romanticises the Wild West.