Migrant boat crossings

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plodder
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by plodder » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:11 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:45 pm
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:42 am
The solution clearly lies on the French side of the border if we narrow the conversation to the practical matter of people crossing the channel in tiny craft.
Technically that could easily be solved entirely from the UK, by the UK telling the ferry and tunnel operators ‘if someone doesn’t have proper immigration papers but says they want to claim asylum, we will not fine you for carrying them and make you take them back again’.

Pragmatically that would probably lead to other problems like people boarding ferries then trying to stow away on vehicles before arriving, or other risky stuff, so the better option would be to agree with France that the UK could receive and begin processing asylum applicants in Calais. But that’s not what the UK wants to do, rather it seems to want France to act (in the memorable words of one of my Twitter follows) as its ‘f.cking butler’.
Yes, I agree a UK immigration processing centre in France is a sensible solution.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Lew Dolby » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:15 pm

except that could just lead to UK officials in France saying NO to everyone, leaving France with the problem and the asylum seekers then trying other routes like small boats
WOULD CUSTOMERS PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SITTING ON THE COUNTER BY THE BACON SLICER - AS WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE BEHIND IN OUR ORDERS.

plodder
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by plodder » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:27 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:15 pm
except that could just lead to UK officials in France saying NO to everyone, leaving France with the problem and the asylum seekers then trying other routes like small boats
UK officials have to follow UK immigration law, including international treaties on migration. So, no.

temptar
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by temptar » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:38 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:27 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:15 pm
except that could just lead to UK officials in France saying NO to everyone, leaving France with the problem and the asylum seekers then trying other routes like small boats
UK officials have to follow UK immigration law, including international treaties on migration. So, no.
The UK's record lately is pathetic on that. Windrush report this week, and ongoing hassles with registration for EU citizens. Put simply, your Home Office has issues.

And even if it was a valid refusal, people will still get on boats if that seems like their only choice. Desperate people take desperate measures. Would their death be somehow more acceptable if they had been already formally categorised as unwanted?

Population migration is only going to get worse as climate change impacts resource distributions. This issue will not go away by dumping people back on France.

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Fishnut
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Fishnut » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:07 pm

This is a useful piece on the legal responsibilities of the UK. I really recommend reading the whole piece as it gives examples and context but I've pulled the legal obligations for reference,
It is not legal to send boats crossing the Channel back to France. Pushbacks are illegal (regardless of whether smugglers use smaller or larger vessels to transport migrants), and states have an obligation under the International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue to disembark everyone rescued or intercepted at sea at a place of safety, which can only be on dry land...

The UK has responsibilities towards people coming towards its shoreline on boats. According to Article 98(1) of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, nations have a duty to provide assistance to people in distress. It states that they should “proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in distress, if informed of their need of assistance”.

The International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue states that a rescue operation can be effectively considered concluded only when the shipwrecked are disembarked at a place of safety.

The duty under this convention is one without qualification. Any person in distress “regardless of [their] nationality or status […] or the circumstances in which they are found” should be rescued.

Crucially in the case of the UK, Article 98(2) of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea requests states to promote the establishment, operation and maintenance of effective search and rescue services. “Every coastal state” is obliged to do this and is responsible for its violation if the inadequacy or inefficiency of its search and rescue service contributes to loss of life at sea.
It also points out that France and Europe have a responsibility to cooperate,
The UK and France also have a duty of cooperation under the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea and the Search and Rescue Convention to prevent loss of life at sea and ensure completion of a search and rescue operation. This includes a responsibility on both sides to contact the other’s authorities as soon as they receive information about people in danger and to cooperate on search and rescue operations for anyone in distress at sea.
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Fishnut » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:34 pm

The first victim of the latest boat crossing sinking has been named. She was Mariam Nouri Hamadameen, a 21 year old Kurdish woman from northern Iraq. She was trying to reach her fiancé who already lives in the UK.
Mariam.jpg
Mariam.jpg (22.53 KiB) Viewed 1858 times
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Millennie Al » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:44 am

plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:11 pm
Yes, I agree a UK immigration processing centre in France is a sensible solution.
Only to people who are not the racist, xenophobes who are so anti-immigrant and who created the problem in the first place. They would regard it as a poor solution as it would result in some people being approved to come here who would otherwise have given up or died trying.

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bjn
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by bjn » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:44 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:44 am
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:11 pm
Yes, I agree a UK immigration processing centre in France is a sensible solution.
Only to people who are not the racist, xenophobes who are so anti-immigrant and who created the problem in the first place. They would regard it as a poor solution as it would result in some people being approved to come here who would otherwise have given up or died trying.
And that is the fundamental problem we have.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by plodder » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:46 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:44 am
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:11 pm
Yes, I agree a UK immigration processing centre in France is a sensible solution.
Only to people who are not the racist, xenophobes who are so anti-immigrant and who created the problem in the first place. They would regard it as a poor solution as it would result in some people being approved to come here who would otherwise have given up or died trying.
That’s an unhelpful perspective. The problem is complex, for starters, and the issues we face right now are more to do with silly politicians backing themselves into corners and failing to leave themselves any room to manoeuvre. Now, even a really useful collaboration will look like a climbdown.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by temptar » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 am


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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by temptar » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:15 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:46 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:44 am
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:11 pm
Yes, I agree a UK immigration processing centre in France is a sensible solution.
Only to people who are not the racist, xenophobes who are so anti-immigrant and who created the problem in the first place. They would regard it as a poor solution as it would result in some people being approved to come here who would otherwise have given up or died trying.
That’s an unhelpful perspective. The problem is complex, for starters, and the issues we face right now are more to do with silly politicians backing themselves into corners and failing to leave themselves any room to manoeuvre. Now, even a really useful collaboration will look like a climbdown.
This is modus operandi of the British government at the moment and has been for years. You will not be helped here either by the UK's behaviour around Brexit. If you have to beat someone all the time, a mutually beneficial agreement of any sort becomes hard. And the more you do it (cf David Frost) the less easy it becomes to reverse that trend.

I've just posted a HoL video via twitter. I think it's fairly damning.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by plodder » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:33 am

temptar wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 am
Link to speech in the House of Lords on the questions of small boat

May be of interest to some people.
Yes. Essentially, how are people going to claim asylum on UK soil if they can’t get to the UK?

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by bjn » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:41 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:33 am
temptar wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 am
Link to speech in the House of Lords on the questions of small boat

May be of interest to some people.
Yes. Essentially, how are people going to claim asylum on UK soil if they can’t get to the UK?
Again, isn't that entirely the point?

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by plodder » Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:11 pm

Well, obviously a solution is to allow greater numbers of asylum seekers into the country - but our politicians have painted themselves into a corner. The U turn would cripple Johnson so he clearly wants a more politically palatable whizz bang techno-solution.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:08 pm

temptar wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:15 am
plodder wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:46 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:44 am


Only to people who are not the racist, xenophobes who are so anti-immigrant and who created the problem in the first place. They would regard it as a poor solution as it would result in some people being approved to come here who would otherwise have given up or died trying.
That’s an unhelpful perspective. The problem is complex, for starters, and the issues we face right now are more to do with silly politicians backing themselves into corners and failing to leave themselves any room to manoeuvre. Now, even a really useful collaboration will look like a climbdown.
This is modus operandi of the British government at the moment and has been for years. You will not be helped here either by the UK's behaviour around Brexit. If you have to beat someone all the time, a mutually beneficial agreement of any sort becomes hard. And the more you do it (cf David Frost) the less easy it becomes to reverse that trend.

I've just posted a HoL video via twitter. I think it's fairly damning.
The UK policy is little different from that found in every EU member, plus other developed countries I can think of like Australia.

The population of the developed world has collectively decided to limit the number of people claiming asylum, and to do that by making it very difficult for people fleeing persecution to get to the place where they need to claim. The price of that policy is that at least twenty thousand people have drowned trying to cross the Mediterranean or the English Channel.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Fishnut » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:22 pm

temptar wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 am
Link to speech in the House of Lords on the questions of small boat

May be of interest to some people.
Very interesting. Very useful statistics too, including these:
of the top 10 nationalities arriving in small boats, virtually all seek asylum—61% are granted it at the initial stage and 59% of the rest on appeal. The facts suggest that well over 70% of asylum seekers coming across the channel in small boats are genuine asylum seekers, not economic migrants.
This line needs to be repeated everywhere,
Unless we provide a safe route, we are complicit with the people smugglers.
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by plodder » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:08 pm

Suggestions that the role of criminal gangs may be overplayed and that many crossings are families simply buying dinghies. If true Patel’s enemies could have her for breakfast.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... omplicated

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Millennie Al » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:21 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:46 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:44 am
plodder wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:11 pm
Yes, I agree a UK immigration processing centre in France is a sensible solution.
Only to people who are not the racist, xenophobes who are so anti-immigrant and who created the problem in the first place. They would regard it as a poor solution as it would result in some people being approved to come here who would otherwise have given up or died trying.
That’s an unhelpful perspective. The problem is complex, for starters, and the issues we face right now are more to do with silly politicians backing themselves into corners and failing to leave themselves any room to manoeuvre. Now, even a really useful collaboration will look like a climbdown.
Solving a problem requires recognising the problem. People wanting to come to the UK is not a problem: the problem is other people wanting to keep them out. As such any solution has to deal with the latter group and not the former.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by plodder » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:13 am

Perfect is the enemy of good. We don’t need to ‘solve’ racism (whatever that means) to stop people drowning.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:36 pm

plodder wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:13 am
Perfect is the enemy of good. We don’t need to ‘solve’ racism (whatever that means) to stop people drowning.
I think what Milennie is suggesting is that:

a) If the system were to be changed so that claiming asylum didn’t involve a risk of drowning and likely exploitation by criminal gangs then there would be significantly more successful asylum claims.

b) A dramatic increase in successful asylum claims would be politically unacceptable to a large part of the UK electorate, such that the government would change the system back to one involving drowning and smuggling.

c) Leading politicians in the Conservatives, LibDems and Labour are aware of a) and b) and they just skip them. So over the past decades none have made an attempt to create a system for refugees to safely claim asylum.

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nekomatic
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by nekomatic » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:45 pm

Yes except that personally I don’t believe the degree of public indignance at asylum claimants is proportional to their actual numbers, rather to their visibility and the prominence given to them by right-wing papers and politicians. If asylum seekers arrived unobtrusively by regular transport and got assessed quickly and fairly rather than locked up in questionable detention centres or stuffed into rented accommodation concentrated in deprived areas, I’m not sure anyone would care half as much.
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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:10 am

Asylum seekers would be exploited by the usual nasty people regardless of how they got here.

Here's the sort of thing that shows the true problem:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... sent-away/

where an MP says:
Instead of accepting the few who can pay, we should try to do the most good for the most people. For the price of accommodating one person from, say, Syria, in the UK, you might be able to look after 50 refugees from the same war in places where most refugees find themselves: Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon.
So he's suggesting that we shouldn't accept anyone. And this is from an MP who does not fear that such an attitude will cost him his seat.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:20 am

nekomatic wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:45 pm
Yes except that personally I don’t believe the degree of public indignance at asylum claimants is proportional to their actual numbers, rather to their visibility and the prominence given to them by right-wing papers and politicians. If asylum seekers arrived unobtrusively by regular transport and got assessed quickly and fairly rather than locked up in questionable detention centres or stuffed into rented accommodation concentrated in deprived areas, I’m not sure anyone would care half as much.
I agree that at present levels the UK population probably wouldn't notice the people granted asylum in 2021 without the media attention.

Hypothetically, contemporary European states could issue refugees or people who are being persecuted with a 'refugee passport' which would give the holder the right to travel using normal commercial flights, trains or ferries to the state where they wanted to claim asylum. It would be possible to issue them from existing embassies in countries like Iran or to people currently living in refugee camps. Doing that would end drownings and other very bad conditions. Such a scheme would be similar to the documents issued to refugees in the aftermath of the First World War. Alternatively, European states could just recognize identity and travel documents currently issued by the UN.

However, the political question is how many more people would make use of such a system to get to the UK, and how many people who hadn't been pre-screened might do very bad things after they got to Britain.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by plodder » Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:42 pm

It's not just e.g. terrorism and crime risk, migrants tend to be placed in poorer areas with the perception (that may well be true) that public services can't cope, that local culture is changing in ways that make people uncomfortable, that, by sticking together, immigrant communities are not integrating or are perhaps looking out for their own ethnic groups first - you know the kind of thing. It can (and does) create legitimate tension if not managed or thought through, and of course there are plenty of people willing to make political capital out of these things.

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Re: Migrant boat crossings

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:24 am

The racists in Hastings having a totally normal one

https://t.co/cG4lpPe1oT?amp=1
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