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Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:25 am
by plodder
ninja’d. Apologies, I wanted to keep this ‘clean’ without value judgements, but for context a Hastings fisherman was recently rescued by the RNLI...
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... cpxsN71hic
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:19 am
by bjn
"Migrant boat crossings will reach epidemic levels".
Way to go with non inflammatory language, desperate people are obviously the equivalent of infectious diseases.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:20 am
by plodder
bjn wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:19 am
"Migrant boat crossings will reach epidemic levels".
Way to go with non inflammatory language, desperate people are obviously the equivalent of infectious diseases.
You think that's bad?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... _share-top
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:55 am
by Fishnut
While I'm sure no-one here needs to be told this, it is against the law to block emergency services from doing their job.
The
Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act 2006 states,
(1) A person who without reasonable excuse obstructs or hinders another while that other person is, in a capacity mentioned in subsection (2) below, responding to emergency circumstances, commits an offence.
(2) The capacity referred to in subsection (1) above is—
(f) that of a member of the crew of a vessel operated by—
(i) the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, or
(ii) any other person or organisation operating a vessel for the purpose of providing a rescue service,
or a person who musters the crew of such a vessel or attends to its launch or recovery.
(3) For the purposes of this section and section 2 of this Act, a person is responding to emergency circumstances if the person—
(a) is going anywhere for the purpose of dealing with emergency circumstances occurring there; or
(b) is dealing with emergency circumstances or preparing to do so.
(4) For the purposes of this Act, circumstances are “emergency” circumstances if they are present or imminent and—
(a) are causing or are likely to cause—
(i) serious injury to or the serious illness (including mental illness) of a person;
(ii) serious harm to the environment (including the life and health of plants and animals);
(iii) serious harm to any building or other property; or
(iv) a worsening of any such injury, illness or harm; or
(b) are likely to cause the death of a person.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:33 pm
by FlammableFlower
In which case I hope they throw the book at them.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:07 am
by nezumi
FlammableFlower wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:33 pm
In which case I hope they throw the book at them.
The biggest book they can find, hopefully.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:58 am
by Fishnut
A journalist at Kent Online asks the people who reacted to a Facebook story about the deaths with laughing faces. It goes
as well as you'd expect.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:14 pm
by FlammableFlower
It's a very good, if depressing, article. Fair play to him.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:33 pm
by discovolante
I honestly think this issue is the political equivalent of alternative medicine. There is so much complete and utter b.llsh.t spouted about refugees and asylum seekers that it's hard to know where to even start with the misinformation, there is just such a fundamental misunderstanding. I don't think that necessarily leads to most people being as heartless and racist as the ones in the Kent Online article but it's not surprising that you end up with such extreme views and probably a lot more people muttering about it in their living rooms without being quite so blatant. Worse the Home Office is actively responsible for it and has been for years and years. It was bad under Labour too although of course Priti Patel has managed to take it to another level.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:42 pm
by wilsontown
discovolante wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:33 pm
I honestly think this issue is the political equivalent of alternative medicine. There is so much complete and utter b.llsh.t spouted about refugees and asylum seekers that it's hard to know where to even start with the misinformation, there is just such a fundamental misunderstanding. I don't think that necessarily leads to most people being as heartless and racist as the ones in the Kent Online article but it's not surprising that you end up with such extreme views and probably a lot more people muttering about it in their living rooms without being quite so blatant. Worse the Home Office is actively responsible for it and has been for years and years. It was bad under Labour too although of course Priti Patel has managed to take it to another level.
This. I'm on a Rugby League forum where this stuff is being discussed, and despite people posting factual stuff again and again there are still people popping up in the thread going "most of them aren't genuine refugees" (false) and "they have to stop in the first safe country they get to" (wrong). Truly depressing stuff. And our esteemed leaders seem to have no interest in developing a plan for dealing with the situation that doesn't result in worse outcomes.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:43 pm
by Gfamily
This was on Twitter recently; the movement of refugees from Syria
- FFWuenpXIAQVKHK.jpeg (504.67 KiB) Viewed 1527 times
https://twitter.com/DanJWrightson/statu ... 46497?s=20
I can't verify the figures.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:53 pm
by purplehaze
The people crossing the channel are asylum seekers, refugees.
They are not migrants.
https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/infor ... ut-asylum/
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:59 pm
by discovolante
I'd quibble with the definition of migrant from an accuracy perspective but perhaps not a messaging one if the Refugee Council has decided that's the right thing to do.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:00 pm
by purplehaze
Migrants are people who chose to work elsewhere and this could be within their own country or outside of that within a country that gives them reciprocal citizen rights. For example:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... a-guidance
However migrants are now, erroneously in my opinion, linked with asylum seekers and refugees.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:07 pm
by discovolante
Migration just means movement. Unfortunately the government and press has made the concept of migration toxic so I can understand why the Refugee Council would want to make that distinction. However I don't think it is strictly accurate as it is too categorical, and I don't think it does much to help with attitudes that suggest that the only possible legitimate reason for moving is to flee persecution.
See e.g. the UN definition
https://refugeesmigrants.un.org/definitions
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:26 pm
by plodder
From a practical perspective what are the hoops people have to jump through who have passports? Can they buy a ferry ticket like any other tourist and claim asylum on UK soil that way? If not, why not? Have we got visa requirements people from Syria, Iran etc can't meet?
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:42 pm
by Woodchopper
plodder wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:26 pm
From a practical perspective what are the hoops people have to jump through who have passports? Can they buy a ferry ticket like any other tourist and claim asylum on UK soil that way? If not, why not? Have we got visa requirements people from Syria, Iran etc can't meet?
They would need a valid UK visa before they would be allowed on a plane. Someone in a refugee camp in Syria will find it very very hard to get a UK visa.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:42 pm
by Fishnut
plodder wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:26 pm
From a practical perspective what are the hoops people have to jump through who have passports? Can they buy a ferry ticket like any other tourist and claim asylum on UK soil that way? If not, why not? Have we got visa requirements people from Syria, Iran etc can't meet?
Very quick googling so only a partial answer - Syrians need a visa to get into the UK, the type of visa depends on why they want to come. The Embassy in Damascus
is closed so they have to travel to another country to obtain one. If you want to come to work then it looks like that you need a job offer already (I may be misreading this though - this is the
uk.gov site that helps you work out if you need a visa. I've put in that I'm from Syria and tried a few different options). From anecdotal reports I've seen on Twitter and elsewhere, getting a visa from non-Western countries can require a lot of information and proof that you intend to leave on or by a specific date, with the implied point that you have to prove that you're not going to land and claim asylum. So, for a
tourism visa,
You must be able to show that:
- you’ll leave the UK at the end of your visit
- you’re able to support yourself and your dependants during your trip (or have funding from someone else to support you)
- you’re able to pay for your return or onward journey (or have funding from someone else to pay for the journey)
- you’ll not live in the UK for extended periods through frequent or successive visits, or make the UK your main home
I've seen examples of people who can do all this still being denied visas because they are mistakenly thought to be at risk of overstaying. So if you're from Syria and claim you just want to come to the UK on holiday with your family I really can't imagine anyone believing you (even if it was true).
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:51 pm
by Woodchopper
Fishnut wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:42 pm
I've seen examples of people who can do all this still being denied visas because they are mistakenly thought to be at risk of overstaying. So if you're from Syria and claim you just want to come to the UK on holiday with your family I really can't imagine anyone believing you (even if it was true).
In 2019 I attended an academic conference in the UK which was about research on African countries. About a third of the invited African academics were denied UK visas, even though they had return tickets, a letter of invitation and decent jobs to go home to. There's similar problems with getting a Shengen visa.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:04 pm
by purplehaze
plodder wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:26 pm
From a practical perspective what are the hoops people have to jump through who have passports? Can they buy a ferry ticket like any other tourist and claim asylum on UK soil that way? If not, why not? Have we got visa requirements people from Syria, Iran etc can't meet?
If I was to flee this country, England, for whatever reason, and decided to take the ferry route shortest to me, I would need an app on my phone to book, the money to do it, and the immediate transport as well - car with petrol and I would bring my passports. However, even travelling via Ireland before the pandemic and post Brexit, I was asked when travelling via Dublin to Northern Ireland on a holiday, what passport I was travelling under. I have duel citizenship, Irish and British passports, but at that time, which was an emergency, I took my British passport. I was asked this question in Dublin.
Edit to add: I put it down as a holiday, even though it was an emergency to help my mum post surgery on her eye. I had booked return.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:04 pm
by plodder
Woodchopper wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:51 pm
Fishnut wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:42 pm
I've seen examples of people who can do all this still being denied visas because they are mistakenly thought to be at risk of overstaying. So if you're from Syria and claim you just want to come to the UK on holiday with your family I really can't imagine anyone believing you (even if it was true).
In 2019 I attended an academic conference in the UK which was about research on African countries. About a third of the invited African academics were denied UK visas, even though they had return tickets, a letter of invitation and decent jobs to go home to. There's similar problems with getting a Shengen visa.
Thanks both. It just occurred to me that people with the means to pay for criminals to take them across in dinghies (very large costs are frequently bandied about) then they ought to be able to at least meet some sort of financial criteria for visas.
So the solution looks like a change of leadership at the home office, a little less rhetoric, and some fairly small technical changes that Farage etc won't be able to whip people up over (because they'll be too boring) and at least the problem of drowning and small boats could be addressed. Thanks for that.
p.s. it's all kicking off on local Hastings facebook - the fishermen who blocked the lifeboat are now claiming it was all a big misunderstanding, to jeers from the great unwashed - bits and bobs of the video footage are coming out...
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:05 pm
by purplehaze
discovolante wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:07 pm
Migration just means movement. Unfortunately the government and press has made the concept of migration toxic so I can understand why the Refugee Council would want to make that distinction. However I don't think it is strictly accurate as it is too categorical, and I don't think it does much to help with attitudes that suggest that the only possible legitimate reason for moving is to flee persecution.
See e.g. the UN definition
https://refugeesmigrants.un.org/definitions
I was initially responding to the title of this thread.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:06 pm
by plodder
purplehaze wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:04 pm
plodder wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:26 pm
From a practical perspective what are the hoops people have to jump through who have passports? Can they buy a ferry ticket like any other tourist and claim asylum on UK soil that way? If not, why not? Have we got visa requirements people from Syria, Iran etc can't meet?
If I was to flee this country, England, for whatever reason, and decided to take the ferry route shortest to me, I would need an app on my phone to book, the money to do it, and the immediate transport as well - car with petrol and I would bring my passports. However, even travelling via Ireland before the pandemic and post Brexit, I was asked when travelling via Dublin to Northern Ireland on a holiday, what passport I was travelling under. I have duel citizenship, Irish and British passports, but at that time, which was an emergency, I took my British passport. I was asked this question in Dublin.
Aside from the money issue, you might be surprised at the % of the world's population who now have mobile phones or access to one.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:11 pm
by purplehaze
I attended a course on asylum and refugee seekers and it was most enlightening. Most do have mobile phones and keep all their important papers in hand, like you and I do. They also do have a bit of spare cash floating around as well. Asylum and refugee seekers who are broadly middle class have been doing this for centuries.
Re: Migrant boat crossings
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:22 pm
by purplehaze
So I migrated from Ireland to England in the late 80s and looking for work. I was born in Northern Ireland and worked there for a while. When I had emergency surgery, essentially the NHS, in 1990, I was told I would not be charged because I had a National Insurance number - which came as a shock to me.