2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

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bagpuss
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by bagpuss » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:49 pm

nezumi wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:02 pm

Anyone know what the precendent for this is? Don't think I've ever paid attention to MP defections before.
It happens occasionally. My parents' MP defected some years ago - also from Tory to Labour. A swift Google tells me it happened in 1995 and the Guardian article from the time mentions an 8 week "quarantine" period before he was granted the Labour whip. He continued to be the MP for the constituency until the next general election and lots of local people complained like hell about the horrors of being represented by a Labour MP. As my parents pointed out at the time though (as did I), it was only fair as the Labour voters in the constituency finally got to have representation for a bit. Come the next General Election, I can't recall if he stood again as Labour for that constituency, or elsewhere, but the constituency went back to being Conservative again.

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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by nezumi » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:52 pm

bagpuss wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:49 pm
nezumi wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:02 pm

Anyone know what the precendent for this is? Don't think I've ever paid attention to MP defections before.
It happens occasionally. My parents' MP defected some years ago - also from Tory to Labour. A swift Google tells me it happened in 1995 and the Guardian article from the time mentions an 8 week "quarantine" period before he was granted the Labour whip. He continued to be the MP for the constituency until the next general election and lots of local people complained like hell about the horrors of being represented by a Labour MP. As my parents pointed out at the time though (as did I), it was only fair as the Labour voters in the constituency finally got to have representation for a bit. Come the next General Election, I can't recall if he stood again as Labour for that constituency, or elsewhere, but the constituency went back to being Conservative again.

Edit to fix url bracketing failure
Interesting, I did wonder how constituents would react to their MP defecting, Bury South is a red wall seat so I imagine quite a few constituents will be relieved! It will be fascinating to see how the next by-election (or GE, whichever comes first) will play out.
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:09 pm

It's exceedingly rare for there to be a by-election when an MP defects. Some MPs (such as Corbyn) like to pretend that it's a matter of honour, in which case one of the few MPs to have done so and showed honour is Douglas Carswell when he defected to UKIP in 2014 (he was duly re-elected). As far as I can tell, the previous MP to seek re-election after changing party was Bruce Douglas-Mann upon changing from Labour to SDP in 1982 (he was not duly re-elected, the Conservative candidate was).
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Little waster » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:12 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 pm
JessP.PNG
The irony of course is that while Johnson clings to "Wait for the inquiry" card as if it was a Shield of Invulnerability (+5) (and presumably his lawyer has told them that is all he can do now), every time he trots it out (sometimes multiple times in a row) he just further cements his appearance of evasiveness and the absurdity of not being able to confirm or deny the most basic of facts until apparently a junior civil servant with a very limited purview comes down the f.cking mountain like Moses with the Word of God.

We then move from the embarrassing sight of watching the supposed-PM squirming like a toddler who has just sh.t himself to some halfwit Cabinet Minister claiming:-

"It is obvious the PM is very sorry for the thing he continues to deny ever happened and he has repeatedly apologised for the thing he says he never did and given his proven record of unbroken honesty and the very sincere and dignified way he red-facedly screams that he don't wanna go potty, we should all just move-on and get on with the real task in hand, which at this point is mopping up all the noxious brown liquid currently running down the PM's thighs."
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by bjn » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:55 pm

Little waster wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:12 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 pm
JessP.PNG
The irony of course is that while Johnson clings to "Wait for the inquiry" card as if it was a Shield of Invulnerability (+5) (and presumably his lawyer has told them that is all he can do now), every time he trots it out (sometimes multiple times in a row) he just further cements his appearance of evasiveness and the absurdity of not being able to confirm or deny the most basic of facts until apparently a junior civil servant with a very limited purview comes down the f.cking mountain like Moses with the Word of God.

We then move from the embarrassing sight of watching the supposed-PM squirming like a toddler who has just sh.t himself to some halfwit Cabinet Minister claiming:-

"It is obvious the PM is very sorry for the thing he continues to deny ever happened and he has repeatedly apologised for the thing he says he never did and given his proven record of unbroken honesty and the very sincere and dignified way he red-facedly screams that he don't wanna go potty, we should all just move-on and get on with the real task in hand, which at this point is mopping up all the noxious brown liquid currently running down the PM's thighs."
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by lpm » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:04 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Surprised Johnson didn't recognise the famous Leo Amery quote, which in turn was a quote of Oliver Cromwell: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing."

Johnson "wrote" a book on Churchill ffs.

Perhaps he was just pretending not to recognise the quote,
From a fellow forumite of another forum:
I have just checked Johnson’s Churchill biography and he somehow deals with the Norway debate without mentioning this famous intervention

And the one index entry for Amery is not about this intervention either
davidallengreen
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But!

He does claim in the bibliography of his Churchill book to have consulted the Amery papers in Cambridge, and to have read both volumes of Amery's diaries

Of course, he did not really write that Churchill book though..!
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Stranger Mouse » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:42 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Surprised Johnson didn't recognise the famous Leo Amery quote, which in turn was a quote of Oliver Cromwell: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing."

Johnson "wrote" a book on Churchill ffs.

Perhaps he was just pretending not to recognise the quote,
Review of said book here. Quite something.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/20 ... -churchill
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Stranger Mouse » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:47 pm

bagpuss wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:49 pm
nezumi wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:02 pm

Anyone know what the precendent for this is? Don't think I've ever paid attention to MP defections before.
It happens occasionally. My parents' MP defected some years ago - also from Tory to Labour. A swift Google tells me it happened in 1995 and the Guardian article from the time mentions an 8 week "quarantine" period before he was granted the Labour whip. He continued to be the MP for the constituency until the next general election and lots of local people complained like hell about the horrors of being represented by a Labour MP. As my parents pointed out at the time though (as did I), it was only fair as the Labour voters in the constituency finally got to have representation for a bit. Come the next General Election, I can't recall if he stood again as Labour for that constituency, or elsewhere, but the constituency went back to being Conservative again.

Edit to fix url bracketing failure
This is art

From Sam Coates.

“Tory MP Jonathan Gullis claims on @skynews that MPs are withdrawing letters from Sir Graham Brady

But admitted on air to me he doesn’t know who those individuals are or how many there are and says he hasn’t spoken to any such individuals directly”
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:06 pm

Starmer's "bring their own boos" gag at PMQs is pretty funny.
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wilsontown
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by wilsontown » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:17 pm

It's a good gag, but possibly pinched from today's Private Eye cover - which I think would have been on newsstands yesterday in That London.
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by wilsontown » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:42 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Surprised Johnson didn't recognise the famous Leo Amery quote, which in turn was a quote of Oliver Cromwell: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing."

Johnson "wrote" a book on Churchill ffs.

Perhaps he was just pretending not to recognise the quote,
Review of said book here. Quite something.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/20 ... -churchill
I think my favourite line from that review, for its sheer economy, is "The Germans did not capture Stalingrad, though this book claims they did."
"All models are wrong but some are useful" - George Box

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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by jimbob » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:55 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:42 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Surprised Johnson didn't recognise the famous Leo Amery quote, which in turn was a quote of Oliver Cromwell: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing."

Johnson "wrote" a book on Churchill ffs.

Perhaps he was just pretending not to recognise the quote,
Review of said book here. Quite something.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/20 ... -churchill
That is some review. And updated recently too
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by IvanV » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:50 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:09 pm
It's exceedingly rare for there to be a by-election when an MP defects. Some MPs (such as Corbyn) like to pretend that it's a matter of honour, in which case one of the few MPs to have done so and showed honour is Douglas Carswell when he defected to UKIP in 2014 (he was duly re-elected). As far as I can tell, the previous MP to seek re-election after changing party was Bruce Douglas-Mann upon changing from Labour to SDP in 1982 (he was not duly re-elected, the Conservative candidate was).
Party-switcher extraordinaire is aptly named Mark Reckless. He had a by-election on just one of his 5 switches.

Elected Tory MP for Medway in 2010, he followed a month after Carswell to UKIP in 2014. He had a by-election which he won. But then lost at the 2015 general election shortly after.

Reckless was then elected to the Welsh Assembly as a UKIP member, the destination of a number of failed English politicians like Hamilton. He did not have by-elections when then defected to the Conservative Party Group, left that to become an Independent, and next joined the Brexit Party. Most recently he joined the Abolish The Welsh Assembly Party. He failed to be elected in the 2021 Senedd election. Perhaps that will be his final reckless decision in his fading career.

He was briefly a work colleage of mine about 20 years ago, though I don't think I ever spoke to him.

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Little waster
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Little waster » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:09 am

IvanV wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:50 am
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:09 pm
It's exceedingly rare for there to be a by-election when an MP defects. Some MPs (such as Corbyn) like to pretend that it's a matter of honour, in which case one of the few MPs to have done so and showed honour is Douglas Carswell when he defected to UKIP in 2014 (he was duly re-elected). As far as I can tell, the previous MP to seek re-election after changing party was Bruce Douglas-Mann upon changing from Labour to SDP in 1982 (he was not duly re-elected, the Conservative candidate was).
Party-switcher extraordinaire is aptly named Mark Reckless. He had a by-election on just one of his 5 switches.

Elected Tory MP for Medway in 2010, he followed a month after Carswell to UKIP in 2014. He had a by-election which he won. But then lost at the 2015 general election shortly after.

Reckless was then elected to the Welsh Assembly as a UKIP member, the destination of a number of failed English politicians like Hamilton. He did not have by-elections when then defected to the Conservative Party Group, left that to become an Independent, and next joined the Brexit Party. Most recently he joined the Abolish The Welsh Assembly Party. He failed to be elected in the 2021 Senedd election. Perhaps that will be his final reckless decision in his fading career.

He was briefly a work colleage of mine about 20 years ago, though I don't think I ever spoke to him.
Staying vaguely on topic, Churchill also had more parties than Ann Summers (h/t J.O.B).

When questioned about this, noted Churchill Biographer, Johnson replied "Who? Never heard of him, have you asked Sue Gray?".
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by lpm » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:27 am

Blackmail, huh. Who'd've thought it. If only there was some way of knowing Johnson was a threatening bully.
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Sciolus » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:58 am

Hey, he told Guppy not to break too many ribs.

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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Little waster » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:20 am

lpm wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:27 am
Blackmail, huh. Who'd've thought it. If only there was some way of knowing Johnson was a threatening bully.
Wragg claims some MPs have been told that their constituencies will lose government funding if they don’t back the PM. This would amount to using public money for political advantage, which could conceivably pass a criminal test for corruption,
I'm pretty sure in the mythic Before Times (circa mid-2019) that would have represented a major story rather than just a throw-away "19th paragraph" aside. :|

ETA: Also:-
My colleague Aubrey Allegretti wrote about MPs being threatened in this way in September last year, and similiar threats were reportedly issued ahead of the Owen Paterson vote in November.
Last edited by Little waster on Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by purplehaze » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:21 am

Blackmail is a punishable offense by law. Will the Met Police take this seriously?

Wragg said:

"The reports of which I'm aware would seem to constitute blackmail"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/21

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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by purplehaze » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:26 am

I'm of no doubt that many are going to cover their backs.

It's an amazing statement to make.

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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by jimbob » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:41 am

wilsontown wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:42 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Surprised Johnson didn't recognise the famous Leo Amery quote, which in turn was a quote of Oliver Cromwell: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing."

Johnson "wrote" a book on Churchill ffs.

Perhaps he was just pretending not to recognise the quote,
Review of said book here. Quite something.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/20 ... -churchill
I think my favourite line from that review, for its sheer economy, is "The Germans did not capture Stalingrad, though this book claims they did."
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by jimbob » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:05 pm

wilsontown wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:42 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Surprised Johnson didn't recognise the famous Leo Amery quote, which in turn was a quote of Oliver Cromwell: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing."

Johnson "wrote" a book on Churchill ffs.

Perhaps he was just pretending not to recognise the quote,
Review of said book here. Quite something.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/20 ... -churchill
I think my favourite line from that review, for its sheer economy, is "The Germans did not capture Stalingrad, though this book claims they did."
Following my tweeting to that book review - I now have come across a new set of deniers. Those who think that the 6th Army captured Stalingrad.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Woodchopper
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:14 pm

Whips have always threatened to expose aspects of MPs private lives. They keep dossiers on MPs.

Prime Ministers have always used public spending in order to gain party political advantage. One prominent example was in 1966 when the Labour government announced during a by-election campaign for the Kingston upon Hull North constituency that they were going to build what became the Humber suspension bridge (which at the time was the longest suspension bridge in the world).

But what seems to cross a line in the current allegations
are the threats to withdraw funding. It’s one thing to offer carrots, another to punish constituents for actions by the MP.

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lpm
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by lpm » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:22 pm

Imagine the sort of scum who'd support Johnson without being blackmailed.
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by TopBadger » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:52 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:14 pm
But what seems to cross a line in the current allegations are the threats to withdraw funding. It’s one thing to offer carrots, another to punish constituents for actions by the MP.
Needs proof though - without that any action is a simple breaking of promises that BJ is rather well known for.
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Re: 2020 No. 10 Christmas Party!

Post by Little waster » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:55 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:14 pm
Whips have always threatened to expose aspects of MPs private lives. They keep dossiers on MPs.

Prime Ministers have always used public spending in order to gain party political advantage. One prominent example was in 1966 when the Labour government announced during a by-election campaign for the Kingston upon Hull North constituency that they were going to build what became the Humber suspension bridge (which at the time was the longest suspension bridge in the world).
Newsnight has just been graced by the impressively low-wattage Greg Hands MP.

As a former Whip he pooh-poohed any suggestion that the Whips would act in anyway like has been repeatedly been documented over the centuries.

His main arguments against a Whip ever possibly resorting to their well-established MO were (brace yourself):-

1. If Whips needed to blackmail MPs to support a government policy that would suggest the policy mightn't be very good and would have failed to pass on its own merits [/end sentence apparently]

2. If Whips were blackmailing MPs then loads of MPs would be rushing forward to highlight the fact they were being blackmailed and damn the consequences because that's how blackmail works.

3. Christian Wakeford is a Labour MP and therefore would be incredibly biased and as such can not at all be considered a credible impartial witness so his testimony should be ignored outright. Wragg who? Fortunately as a former Whip and current Tory Minister desperately trying to save the jobs of himself and his lying scumbag boss we can trust him implicitly on everything that he has to say on the matter and therfore shoulud consider it closed.

IIRC as the interview ended you can just see him have a sudden epiphany of self-awareness and Kirsty Wark's segue to the next segment was drowned out by the sounds of his soul-deep wracking sobs as he stared into the howling void of his own pointlessness ... and the void looked back. :shock:
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What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
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