The Age of Electric Vehicles

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:47 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:50 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:30 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:00 pm
However, we are allegedly facing a climate emergency. And this requires that people stop driving fossil-fuelled cars.
Except in the real world you can't make all ICEs vanish overnight, because many of the journeys people make in them still have to happen. The replacement needs to happen as quickly as possible, but a bit of extended thought about the pragmatic issues involved will soon reveal the necessity of juggling multiple priorities.
It's not an overnight change - we didn't first learn of the problem yesterday. How much longer is pragmatism going to result in expensive, ineffective measures?
I actually think the problem has been too much expedience, rather than too much pragmatism. But practically everybody involved in serious environmental campaigning is convinced that the necessary transition should aim for justice as well as speed.

One thing that has definitely failed so far though is relying on market forces.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by TopBadger » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:08 am

So the TEDx talk suggests Hybrids are the way forward to greenify travel without pumping too much CO2 into the atmosphere in production.

I'd never really thought too much about 'Self-Charging Hybrids'. But as I understand it those have normal engines and transmission...

Wouldn't the optimum configuration be to have essentially a small BEV (so all electric transmission and battery enough for 100 miles say) mated to a generator? When the battery is full - it operates as a BEV - on lower charge levels the generator kicks in and propels the car and recharges the battery until enough charge restored for the battery to take over again, whilst also offering the option to park, plug in and top up the battery?

I'm guessing the issue here is that compact generators capable of powering the car and recharging the battery don't exist?
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by lpm » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm

That's a Range Extender, REx. It's just a PHEV. The Volt is the most common example.

REx cars are a dead end and development is being abandoned. Battery tech got too good too fast for this interim answer.

The bigger problem is that Ted talk. It is non-stop wrong. It is embarrassingly stupid.

For a start, he repeats the zombie fake statistic that a BEV takes 80,000 to 90,000 miles to pay back CO2 cost of the battery manufacture. The actual figure is around 12,000 miles, depending on country and it's electricity mix. A Tesla Model 3 takes 13,000 miles for the US mix. It would be 8,000 miles for the Norway mix. The pay back can be improved by making the manufacturing plants directly powered from renewables, as well as the electricity supply getting more renewable, both of which are happening. The 80,000 miles was invented by fossil fuel lobbying groups and is a lie that can't be killed. Shameful.

Other false claims in the video are:

- a fossil fuel car emits only 30 tons of CO2 in its lifetime usage stage. This isn't even true for the most efficient cars (i.e. not American cars), it's more like 40 to 60 tons
- that the BEV range is only 125 miles. I believe he faked the figure for CO2 embedded in a BEV with that sized battery, or maybe he was taking figures from early Leafs or something
- the lie that bigger battery cars have even longer than 80,000 miles to pay back CO2 and never get there
- the constant repeating of his silly pretence that CO2 emissions from BEV usage goes unmeasured or unrecognised
- the faked appeal to moderation, with his 'let's gently transition to hybrids' (not even PHEV hybrids) argument

Which, of course, makes one immediately suspicious. Who is this person? What is his background?

And sure enough he works for a non-profit think tank founded by the fossil fuel industry, working on fossil fuel vehicles and promoting the fossil fuel message.

I'm annoyed with you for making me waste 15 minutes of my life watching this kind of sh.t on YouTube and making me fisk it. What were you thinking? Why didn't you immediately see it was all bollocks? Raise your game or f.ck off out of here.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by TopBadger » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:24 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm
I'm annoyed with you for making me waste 15 minutes of my life watching this kind of sh.t on YouTube and making me fisk it. What were you thinking? Why didn't you immediately see it was all bollocks? Raise your game or f.ck off out of here.
My apologies lpm... techy today? I'd figured TED vets their speakers more carefully than most so my fields were lower than normal.

Without the information you provided (which I clearly didn't have and appreciate) it's not at all obvious that in his 'y = mx + c' charts that the rather critical value of c is bollocks.

At least you've now created a google searchable post to allow others to know something of what you know... so not all bad.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by dyqik » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:29 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:24 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm
I'm annoyed with you for making me waste 15 minutes of my life watching this kind of sh.t on YouTube and making me fisk it. What were you thinking? Why didn't you immediately see it was all bollocks? Raise your game or f.ck off out of here.
My apologies lpm... techy today? I'd figured TED vets their speakers more carefully than most so my fields were lower than normal.
My baseline assumption for TED is that it's a platform for self-promoters, and that it's marginally less trustworthy than newspaper opinion pieces by guest writers.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by basementer » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:45 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:24 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm
I'm annoyed with you for making me waste 15 minutes of my life watching this kind of sh.t on YouTube and making me fisk it. What were you thinking? Why didn't you immediately see it was all bollocks? Raise your game or f.ck off out of here.
My apologies lpm... techy today? I'd figured TED vets their speakers more carefully than most so my fields were lower than normal.
They do. But your link is to a TEDx video not a TED video.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by bjn » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:04 am

basementer wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:45 pm
TopBadger wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:24 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm
I'm annoyed with you for making me waste 15 minutes of my life watching this kind of sh.t on YouTube and making me fisk it. What were you thinking? Why didn't you immediately see it was all bollocks? Raise your game or f.ck off out of here.
My apologies lpm... techy today? I'd figured TED vets their speakers more carefully than most so my fields were lower than normal.
They do. But your link is to a TEDx video not a TED video.
I barely bother with TED, for the reason that dyqik said. TEDx is like TED, but worse.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by bob sterman » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:55 am

bjn wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:04 am
I barely bother with TED, for the reason that dyqik said. TEDx is like TED, but worse.
Even TED say TEDx = "Not necessarily field experts"...

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:54 pm

Groovy.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:19 pm

If they aren't well designed and maintained they'll be a bastard for manual wheelchairs with small casters.

On the other hand, way better than just trailing cables. I would ask do some people just not f.cking think before obstructing pavements, but I well aware from experience that a lot of people don't.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by nekomatic » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:02 am

At work I have somehow ended up on a mailing list for marketing communications from BMW and pass me the f***ing lentils:
Enticing the extroverted and wealthy as a new and globally expanding target group requires plenty of new publicity and marketing approaches. Following the world premiere of the BMW Concept XM at end of October 2021 in Miami, we started to promote an increasingly important aspect for the future of the BMW M brand in our communication channels: Expressive Lifestyle.

The market share of large, powerful SUV/SAC is growing and will continue to grow as upcoming electrified offers enter the market and attract the super-wealthy urban elite.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by TopBadger » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:12 am

I was recently looking at purchasing a BEV - had a test drive. Sales guy just contacted me to see if I'm still interested... er no - not with all the economic shite flying around... I'll leave the savings in the bank as I might need them to pay down my mortgage when my deal ends and I remortgage in April...

High energy prices and economic mismanagement are not going to be helpful for those looking to move to EV's.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by bjn » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:17 am

TopBadger wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:12 am
I was recently looking at purchasing a BEV - had a test drive. Sales guy just contacted me to see if I'm still interested... er no - not with all the economic shite flying around... I'll leave the savings in the bank as I might need them to pay down my mortgage when my deal ends and I remortgage in April...

High energy prices and economic mismanagement are not going to be helpful for those looking to move to EV's.
Or buy any major item, whether a car, house or new curtains.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by individualmember » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:36 am

TBF, I’ve been rather putting off this subject, my car is fine so I’m not going to change it yet. But now my mother’s car has come to its end of life (22 years old and rust is getting unfixable). So i think I want to encourage her to go electric, but there’s a thing that I don’t know how to resolve. She cannot park outside her home, she parks on the next street, typically around 150 metres away (sometimes a bit further). There doesn’t seem to be any possibility of charging points in any walkable distance of her home. There is also the propensity of local yobs to key everyone’s paintwork so I’m not confident that long trailing cables isn’t simply asking for trouble. What are the current solutions to this kind of situation?

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by lpm » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:59 am

EVs are unsuitable if you can't charge on your own driveway.

Some people can get away with it, if there's Tesco chargers round the corner or charging available at work, but still a bit painful.

The solution in the long term is charging along every street, like lampposts, but the UK is failing to make any progress on this. We don't have the labour available to install it.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Grumble » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:10 am

individualmember wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:36 am
TBF, I’ve been rather putting off this subject, my car is fine so I’m not going to change it yet. But now my mother’s car has come to its end of life (22 years old and rust is getting unfixable). So i think I want to encourage her to go electric, but there’s a thing that I don’t know how to resolve. She cannot park outside her home, she parks on the next street, typically around 150 metres away (sometimes a bit further). There doesn’t seem to be any possibility of charging points in any walkable distance of her home. There is also the propensity of local yobs to key everyone’s paintwork so I’m not confident that long trailing cables isn’t simply asking for trouble. What are the current solutions to this kind of situation?
Depending on area rapid charging at service stations is available. There’s a BP garage near my work with 8 chargers installed. Takes longer than filling with petrol, but could be viable. Better if you can leave it charging while shopping or whatever.
A bit churlish

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by lpm » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:31 am

Be aware that public rapid chargers at petrol stations tend to be sexist and ableist infrastructure.

E.g. high curbs, poor lighting at night, no canopy in the rain, isolated locations.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by IvanV » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:33 am

Grumble wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:10 am
Depending on area rapid charging at service stations is available. There’s a BP garage near my work with 8 chargers installed. Takes longer than filling with petrol, but could be viable. Better if you can leave it charging while shopping or whatever.
Currently rapid charging still shortens the life of your battery, and is expensive. Tesla rapid chargers add charge at about 10 miles range per minute (Source: my rich brother), which is proper fast by these standards, but may still be an annoying delay. The current price is of the same order as petrol for that amount of distance too.

If we are to have widespread use of electric cars, then domestic electricity prices for charging need to be accessible to the generality of the population. Or it's another case of stuff the poor.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Gfamily » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:36 am

individualmember wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:36 am
TBF, I’ve been rather putting off this subject, my car is fine so I’m not going to change it yet. But now my mother’s car has come to its end of life (22 years old and rust is getting unfixable). So i think I want to encourage her to go electric, but there’s a thing that I don’t know how to resolve. She cannot park outside her home, she parks on the next street, typically around 150 metres away (sometimes a bit further). There doesn’t seem to be any possibility of charging points in any walkable distance of her home. There is also the propensity of local yobs to key everyone’s paintwork so I’m not confident that long trailing cables isn’t simply asking for trouble. What are the current solutions to this kind of situation?
The infrastructure isn't there yet - in an ideal world, there would be charging points on the street, but it's hard to see how that would work without people hogging the charging points overnight.

What's her typical weekly mileage? If she only needs to charge every week or less, maybe she doesn't need an overnight charge capability, and combining a charging session with a visit to a charger-equipped parking area for a shopping centre, pub, cinema etc might be feasible.

It'll take a while for the infrastructure to catch up with the growing demand - until after WWI, petrol used to be typically sold in 2 gallon cans from garages, hardware stores and hotels.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by nekomatic » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:48 am

This is your periodic reminder that if you want to spend some money on being green, getting solar panels or investing in renewable energy schemes will almost certainly abate more carbon per £, and probably give you a better RoI, than buying an electric car. IANAFI etc.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by bjn » Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:35 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:48 am
This is your periodic reminder that if you want to spend some money on being green, getting solar panels or investing in renewable energy schemes will almost certainly abate more carbon per £, and probably give you a better RoI, than buying an electric car. IANAFI etc.
Also, make sure your house is well insulated before you do any of those.

However, if you are buying a car because of need, shouldn't a BEV be an option even if you haven't done any of the above?

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Imrael » Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:26 pm

As an EV owner, I agree with LPM. THey only really work financially or practically if you can charge at home. Public charging is patchy - much better than 2 years ago, but still pretty unreliable. Its perhaps unfortuante that BP, one of the most prominent larger networks, are also one with the worst reputation.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by IvanV » Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:47 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:48 am
This is your periodic reminder that if you want to spend some money on being green, getting solar panels or investing in renewable energy schemes will almost certainly abate more carbon per £, and probably give you a better RoI, than buying an electric car. IANAFI etc.
Some back of envelope.
Typical EV does about 3 miles per kWh, probably usually a bit more, but call it that for electricity losses in charging. So you are talking about 2700 kWh per year consumption for 8000 miles. The av carbon intensity of UK electricity grid is now down to 180 gCO2/kWh. So you use just short of 500kg of CO2 in your electric car.
Assuming you aren't getting an SUV or something stupid, you might get 12miles per litre from a modern car. So about call it 667 litres of fuel. At 2.4kgCO2/litre that's about 1600 kg of CO2 for your car.

So you are saving perhaps of the order of 1100kg of CO2 per year by having a BEV, at current grid intensity. DId a quick literature search, and recent articles suggests an EV typically emits about 1/3 of the CO2 per km of a liquid fuelled car, so I'm around the right order. I ought to make a deduction for manufacturing emissions, which are larger if your battery is Asian.

If you have a 4.5kW array of solar on your house, which I think is about average then at UK average 11% capacity factor you will get generate about 4300 kWh of electricity. So that displaces about 800 kg of CO2 at the current carbon intensity of the grid. My supplier is quoting about £8,000 for a standard installation like that, but it won't be standard in my case.

So if you can buy a satisfactory BEV for about £8000 more than a conventional car, it isn't obvious to me that a solar array is a much better investment, it's somewhere thereabouts, in terms of carbon abatement per £. Though if you only pay £8000 more than an equivalent combustion car, you are probably only getting one of those many BEVs on the market which only has a range of 200km, which is a joke. Or something small. And then if your alternative is a 2nd hand car, the difference increases.

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