The Age of Electric Vehicles

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WFJ
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by WFJ » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 am

Herainestold wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:04 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:29 pm
God no, sales are already rocketing, make public transport free.
Make them both free and triple the price of petrol.
Electric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Beaker » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:20 am

The building of public on-street charging repeats again the car-centred planning of the 60s and 70s. Once the infrastructure is built, it will preclude a shift to designing for active travel, and further embed car dependency. Our transport design needs to shift to fewer cars, not different cars.

In short, we will never get to good pedestrian and cycling infrastructure if the streets are given over to car storage. An alternative could be public car parks for car storage, rather than the presumed ‘right’ to store your property on the thoroughfare.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am

WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 am
Herainestold wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:04 pm
lpm wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:29 pm
God no, sales are already rocketing, make public transport free.
Make them both free and triple the price of petrol.
Electric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.
Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.

Some people really do need powered private vehicles.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by WFJ » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am
WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 am
Herainestold wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:04 pm


Make them both free and triple the price of petrol.
Electric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.
Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.

Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
Then subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.

In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Beaker » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:00 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am

Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.

Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
Yes, and better accessible design for public transport, especially as a powered private vehicle is only useful to someone who can drive/has a driver.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by IvanV » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:16 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am
WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 am
Herainestold wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:04 pm


Make them both free and triple the price of petrol.
Electric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.
Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.

Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
That's an argument for making better arrangements for disabled people, such as giving them proper financial support for their mobility by appropriate means. And maybe also sorting out some dysfunction in public transport.

It's not an argument against WFJ's worthy proposition that for the general population, it would be appropriate to discourage the use of powered private vehicles. I acknowledge that there is an issue of balance in that in rural vs urban, that simple mechanisms like expensive fuel do not adequately manage.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:39 am

IvanV wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:16 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am
WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 am


Electric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.
Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.

Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
That's an argument for making better arrangements for disabled people, such as giving them proper financial support for their mobility by appropriate means. And maybe also sorting out some dysfunction in public transport.
How about we fix the issues regarding access to public transport before you campaign to take away our ability to get around the aforementioned issues?

Because this is the reality of the situation.
It's not an argument against WFJ's worthy proposition that for the general population, it would be appropriate to discourage the use of powered private vehicles. I acknowledge that there is an issue of balance in that in rural vs urban, that simple mechanisms like expensive fuel do not adequately manage.
There's many areas of the country - rural ones - where the density of travellers is low enough that it is much more efficient for people to have private vehicles than to provide adequate public transport.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by discovolante » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:40 am

WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am
WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 am


Electric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.
Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.

Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
Then subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.

In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.
Well, you have to be 'disabled enough' to get a blue badge. We know what that means in government speak. Introducing criteria excludes people who do need the help.

I'm not sure why in theory you can't have an infrastructure that encourages active transport while also making sure roads and key services are accessible to cars for those who need them. You would probably still need a fair few cars but not as many. If they were all or nearly all electric that would reduce air pollution in cities.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:00 am

discovolante wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:40 am
WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am


Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.

Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
Then subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.

In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.
Well, you have to be 'disabled enough' to get a blue badge. We know what that means in government speak. Introducing criteria excludes people who do need the help.

I'm not sure why in theory you can't have an infrastructure that encourages active transport while also making sure roads and key services are accessible to cars for those who need them. You would probably still need a fair few cars but not as many. If they were all or nearly all electric that would reduce air pollution in cities.
My anecdote. The local council decided that all new or renovated buildings should be built without parking spaces so as to force people to use public transport or walk, cycle etc. So when they renovated the local school they removed all the parking. This has led to big problem for people with impaired mobility (not just the children, but also teachers and parents who want to collect them or go events at the school or meetings). People going to the school have then been parking in the local residential streets which pisses off the locals, partly because it reduces the visibility of children who want to cross the roads. I've seen on the local Facebook group a mini backlash against environmentalism in general, or 'ideological madness' as one person put it.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by lpm » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:04 am

70% of cars in the UK can recharge on driveways.

On-street parking and charging tends to correlate with higher population density, which tends to correlate with better opportunities for public transport.

Giving private ownership for free can have a big negative impact, as shown by giving public land (the street) away for free if used to store a car. A limited resource inevitably becomes overused, to the extent that private car owners then seize pavements for their car storage. And kick up a fuss if attempts are made to reclaim pavements for pedestrians.

On-street charging is a reset opportunity. As is the switch from petrol tax to per-mile tolls. Add in parking tolls to the mix. We should reclaim public ownership of streets and charge people the true cost of parking as well as costs of electricity/recharge infrastructure.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by WFJ » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:56 am

discovolante wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:40 am
WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 am
Then subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.

In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.
Well, you have to be 'disabled enough' to get a blue badge. We know what that means in government speak. Introducing criteria excludes people who do need the help.

I'm not sure why in theory you can't have an infrastructure that encourages active transport while also making sure roads and key services are accessible to cars for those who need them. You would probably still need a fair few cars but not as many. If they were all or nearly all electric that would reduce air pollution in cities.
Getting cars out of city centres, except for those who need them due to mobility issues, is a pipe-dream. Governments suggesting it would be hounded out by the rightwing press, hence my dictator comment. But subsidising private vehicle use by offering free charging would be crazy. Especially as in-city driving is a choice not a necessary for the vast majority of people living in larger UK cities. Even accounting for the UK's poor public transport compared to some other countries. In smaller cities/towns this is less true.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Beaker » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:11 am

This has led to big problem for people with impaired mobility (not just the children, but also teachers and parents who want to collect them or go events at the school or meetings). People going to the school have then been parking in the local residential streets which pisses off the locals,
How many of the vehicles parked in local residential streets are mobility impaired teachers and parents? I’m going to guess a small proportion of the total population of “People going to the school [who] have then been parking in the local residential streets”.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by discovolante » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:17 am

WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:56 am
discovolante wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:40 am
WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 am
Then subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.

In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.
Well, you have to be 'disabled enough' to get a blue badge. We know what that means in government speak. Introducing criteria excludes people who do need the help.

I'm not sure why in theory you can't have an infrastructure that encourages active transport while also making sure roads and key services are accessible to cars for those who need them. You would probably still need a fair few cars but not as many. If they were all or nearly all electric that would reduce air pollution in cities.
Getting cars out of city centres, except for those who need them due to mobility issues, is a pipe-dream. Governments suggesting it would be hounded out by the rightwing press, hence my dictator comment. But subsidising private vehicle use by offering free charging would be crazy. Especially as in-city driving is a choice not a necessary for the vast majority of people living in larger UK cities. Even accounting for the UK's poor public transport compared to some other countries. In smaller cities/towns this is less true.
I wasn't really talking about subsidising, just responding to the idea of banning everyone except blue badge holders.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by lpm » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:30 am

WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:56 am
Getting cars out of city centres, except for those who need them due to mobility issues, is a pipe-dream. Governments suggesting it would be hounded out by the rightwing press, hence my dictator comment.
Those is clearly untrue, because other countries have begun the process. Pedestrianised city centres are becoming the norm. Even in the crappy UK we've got more cycle routes and low traffic zones.

Over the next 30 years there could be big improvements, if we get it right. Making car owners pay the true cost of storage, but getting rights over a recharging space, would be part of it.

When car driving ceases to be subsidised the higher costs will reduce car driving without the need for hounding.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by WFJ » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:40 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:30 am
WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:56 am
Getting cars out of city centres, except for those who need them due to mobility issues, is a pipe-dream. Governments suggesting it would be hounded out by the rightwing press, hence my dictator comment.
Those is clearly untrue, because other countries have begun the process. Pedestrianised city centres are becoming the norm. Even in the crappy UK we've got more cycle routes and low traffic zones.

Over the next 30 years there could be big improvements, if we get it right. Making car owners pay the true cost of storage, but getting rights over a recharging space, would be part of it.

When car driving ceases to be subsidised the higher costs will reduce car driving without the need for hounding.
I think you underestimate the size of the pedestrianised areas under my regime ;) I'm not talking about just the high street/main shopping street.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by lpm » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:57 am

How does your plan compare to Barcelona, Brussels, Amsterdam, Helsinki etc?

It works. It becomes popular.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Gfamily » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:04 pm

Our f.cked up right wing press would weaponise any such proposals as 'woke nonsense' and our f.cked up right wing political parties would bring then into the so called 'culture war'.
Countries such as France, Spain, Germany, Denmark, don't have the f.cked up right wing press to contend with.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by WFJ » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:08 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:57 am
How does your plan compare to Barcelona, Brussels, Amsterdam, Helsinki etc?
I was referring to completely banning private vehicles from city centres (vehicles of those with mobility issues aside). I've never visited Helsinki, but the other three have not done this.
It works. It becomes popular.
Pedestrianisation? I agree. We should do more of it.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:48 pm

Lower congestion and less parking ought to make it easier for vehicles to get through if they actually need to - disabled people, deliveries, emergency services, residents. Loads of Portuguese town centres are this kind of "hybrid pedestrianised" - pedestrians just get out the way when a vehicle needs to get through. It's fine. There's lots of options and opportunities, so finding ways to avoid reducing accessibility should be a priority.

And then it means you have more space for walking and cycling, but also mobility devices (manoeuvring a wheelchair on a narrow pavement next to traffic looks like a nightmare), e-scooters are gonna keep growing, plus you have space to sit out with a coffee and a friend and watch all the people whizz by, which helps to improve mental health (and thus reduce disability) and, for the next decade or so with lots of ICEs, reduce air pollution and thus disability.

A lot of social inequality is reinforced through environmental degradation. I think it's important not to make blanket statements that suggest making things worse for people who are already disadvantaged (e.g. the plastic straw thing and its backlash), because the reality is that the opportunities for transformative improvements to people's lives are really there and should be emphasized more. A lot of sustainable urban design also makes things nicer, which ought to be for everyone.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:52 pm

As for the grant, the government should've expanded it. Give a blanket discount on all EVs so the purchaser's financial savings match society's carbon savings. Include the externalities properly to improve the market's efficiency and it'll do its thing.

I'd love an EV, but won't be able to afford one till they trickle down to the second-hand market (or I change jobs and stop driving). The more folk buy them, the sooner my ICE is off the road.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Herainestold » Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:24 pm

We need to restrict who can get a driving licence.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by IvanV » Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:25 pm

WFJ wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:08 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:57 am
How does your plan compare to Barcelona, Brussels, Amsterdam, Helsinki etc?
I was referring to completely banning private vehicles from city centres (vehicles of those with mobility issues aside). I've never visited Helsinki, but the other three have not done this.
As the Dutch say, "You can drive a car in the centre of Amsterdam, but it's your own fault." In other words, it has been made sufficiently unattractive and/or controlled that very few people do. It is certainly the case that there are rather few cars in the centres of historic Dutch cities like Delft, Gouda, Haarlem, Utrecht, etc, however they achieved it.

In Prague, you can't drive a vehicle into the historic centre without a special permit. There aren't buses there even, only trams and the underground. You have to pay a premium to be picked up/dropped off by a taxi in the historic centre, as only designated taxis can do that. There are also restrictions on commercial vehicles. Suitable restrictions apply in other cities with sensitive historic centres, like Olomouc and Český Krumlov.

You see similar restricted traffic in many historic centres on the continent, like the historic centre of Santiago de Compostela in Spain.

Such historic centres can be quite extensive, as many places weren't bombed to bits in the war.

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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by lpm » Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:28 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:52 pm
As for the grant, the government should've expanded it. Give a blanket discount on all EVs so the purchaser's financial savings match society's carbon savings. Include the externalities properly to improve the market's efficiency and it'll do its thing.

I'd love an EV, but won't be able to afford one till they trickle down to the second-hand market (or I change jobs and stop driving). The more folk buy them, the sooner my ICE is off the road.
That would be true if demand was low. But demand is sky high and manufacturing capacity insufficient.

Current UK waiting times are:

3 months: Kia Soul

4 months: Fiat 500e

5 months: Renault Zoe

6 months: BMW, Cupra, Jaguar iPace, Kia Niro, Nissan Leaf, Polestar, Tesla 3, Vauxhall

12 months: Audi, Porsche,

15 months: VW, Tesla S and X, Skoda

Sales suspended: MG

Manufacturers are trying to speed up manufacture by removing models and trim levels. There's now only one VW ID3 variant for sale, when I ordered 9 months ago there were eight plus various add on options.

Arguably there should be a tax on EVs for a while to reduce demand and fund other stuff.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:39 pm

What if we get demand even higher and manufacturing even more efficient?

Obviously the grid needs decarbonising, but the 16.5% of emissions from cars and taxis are looking increasingly like low-hanging fruit that could be accelerated beyond market rates.

Subsidies would also make car-sharing fleets easier. I wouldn't need my own car at all if I could reliably borrow one from an app to go to a swamp/do some shopping etc. If it's greener and lowers the upfront cost of mobility it's a double social good.
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Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:15 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:24 pm
We need to restrict who can get a driving licence.
We do restrict who can get a driving licence. Not sure if you've heard of it, but we have a thing called a "driving test", made up of two parts - one where people have to demonstrate that the understand the rules of the road theoretically, and another where they have to demonstrate competence whilst actually driving. Then, if those with a driving licence are found to have broken the law with their driving (such as by speeding, drink-driving, or driving through red lights), their licence can be taken away or suspended.

It's quite a good system, you should look into it.
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