Re: The Age of Electric Vehicles
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 am
Electric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.
Electric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.
Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.WFJ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:12 amElectric cars may be less polluting that petrol/diesel, but overall we should be discouraging powered private vehicle use, not promoting it.
Then subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 amPublic transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.
Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
Yes, and better accessible design for public transport, especially as a powered private vehicle is only useful to someone who can drive/has a driver.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am
Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.
Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
That's an argument for making better arrangements for disabled people, such as giving them proper financial support for their mobility by appropriate means. And maybe also sorting out some dysfunction in public transport.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 amPublic transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.
Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
How about we fix the issues regarding access to public transport before you campaign to take away our ability to get around the aforementioned issues?IvanV wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:16 amThat's an argument for making better arrangements for disabled people, such as giving them proper financial support for their mobility by appropriate means. And maybe also sorting out some dysfunction in public transport.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 amPublic transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.
Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
There's many areas of the country - rural ones - where the density of travellers is low enough that it is much more efficient for people to have private vehicles than to provide adequate public transport.It's not an argument against WFJ's worthy proposition that for the general population, it would be appropriate to discourage the use of powered private vehicles. I acknowledge that there is an issue of balance in that in rural vs urban, that simple mechanisms like expensive fuel do not adequately manage.
Well, you have to be 'disabled enough' to get a blue badge. We know what that means in government speak. Introducing criteria excludes people who do need the help.WFJ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 amThen subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 amPublic transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.
Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.
My anecdote. The local council decided that all new or renovated buildings should be built without parking spaces so as to force people to use public transport or walk, cycle etc. So when they renovated the local school they removed all the parking. This has led to big problem for people with impaired mobility (not just the children, but also teachers and parents who want to collect them or go events at the school or meetings). People going to the school have then been parking in the local residential streets which pisses off the locals, partly because it reduces the visibility of children who want to cross the roads. I've seen on the local Facebook group a mini backlash against environmentalism in general, or 'ideological madness' as one person put it.discovolante wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:40 amWell, you have to be 'disabled enough' to get a blue badge. We know what that means in government speak. Introducing criteria excludes people who do need the help.WFJ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 amThen subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:21 am
Public transport is a f.cking nightmare for disabled people. It's still absolutely routine to get blocked from even getting on buses. It's also impossible for two disabled people to travel together by bus in this country.
Some people really do need powered private vehicles.
In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.
I'm not sure why in theory you can't have an infrastructure that encourages active transport while also making sure roads and key services are accessible to cars for those who need them. You would probably still need a fair few cars but not as many. If they were all or nearly all electric that would reduce air pollution in cities.
Getting cars out of city centres, except for those who need them due to mobility issues, is a pipe-dream. Governments suggesting it would be hounded out by the rightwing press, hence my dictator comment. But subsidising private vehicle use by offering free charging would be crazy. Especially as in-city driving is a choice not a necessary for the vast majority of people living in larger UK cities. Even accounting for the UK's poor public transport compared to some other countries. In smaller cities/towns this is less true.discovolante wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:40 amWell, you have to be 'disabled enough' to get a blue badge. We know what that means in government speak. Introducing criteria excludes people who do need the help.WFJ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 amThen subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.
In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.
I'm not sure why in theory you can't have an infrastructure that encourages active transport while also making sure roads and key services are accessible to cars for those who need them. You would probably still need a fair few cars but not as many. If they were all or nearly all electric that would reduce air pollution in cities.
How many of the vehicles parked in local residential streets are mobility impaired teachers and parents? I’m going to guess a small proportion of the total population of “People going to the school [who] have then been parking in the local residential streets”.This has led to big problem for people with impaired mobility (not just the children, but also teachers and parents who want to collect them or go events at the school or meetings). People going to the school have then been parking in the local residential streets which pisses off the locals,
I wasn't really talking about subsidising, just responding to the idea of banning everyone except blue badge holders.WFJ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:56 amGetting cars out of city centres, except for those who need them due to mobility issues, is a pipe-dream. Governments suggesting it would be hounded out by the rightwing press, hence my dictator comment. But subsidising private vehicle use by offering free charging would be crazy. Especially as in-city driving is a choice not a necessary for the vast majority of people living in larger UK cities. Even accounting for the UK's poor public transport compared to some other countries. In smaller cities/towns this is less true.discovolante wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:40 amWell, you have to be 'disabled enough' to get a blue badge. We know what that means in government speak. Introducing criteria excludes people who do need the help.WFJ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:29 amThen subsidise EVs/charging for the disabled.
In a world where I was evil/benevolent dictator, blue badge holders would be the only people allowed to drive powered private vehicles in the fully pedestrianised city/town centres. Every one else would be using out of town park and ride systems.
I'm not sure why in theory you can't have an infrastructure that encourages active transport while also making sure roads and key services are accessible to cars for those who need them. You would probably still need a fair few cars but not as many. If they were all or nearly all electric that would reduce air pollution in cities.
Those is clearly untrue, because other countries have begun the process. Pedestrianised city centres are becoming the norm. Even in the crappy UK we've got more cycle routes and low traffic zones.
I think you underestimate the size of the pedestrianised areas under my regime I'm not talking about just the high street/main shopping street.lpm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:30 amThose is clearly untrue, because other countries have begun the process. Pedestrianised city centres are becoming the norm. Even in the crappy UK we've got more cycle routes and low traffic zones.
Over the next 30 years there could be big improvements, if we get it right. Making car owners pay the true cost of storage, but getting rights over a recharging space, would be part of it.
When car driving ceases to be subsidised the higher costs will reduce car driving without the need for hounding.
I was referring to completely banning private vehicles from city centres (vehicles of those with mobility issues aside). I've never visited Helsinki, but the other three have not done this.
Pedestrianisation? I agree. We should do more of it.It works. It becomes popular.
As the Dutch say, "You can drive a car in the centre of Amsterdam, but it's your own fault." In other words, it has been made sufficiently unattractive and/or controlled that very few people do. It is certainly the case that there are rather few cars in the centres of historic Dutch cities like Delft, Gouda, Haarlem, Utrecht, etc, however they achieved it.
That would be true if demand was low. But demand is sky high and manufacturing capacity insufficient.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:52 pmAs for the grant, the government should've expanded it. Give a blanket discount on all EVs so the purchaser's financial savings match society's carbon savings. Include the externalities properly to improve the market's efficiency and it'll do its thing.
I'd love an EV, but won't be able to afford one till they trickle down to the second-hand market (or I change jobs and stop driving). The more folk buy them, the sooner my ICE is off the road.
We do restrict who can get a driving licence. Not sure if you've heard of it, but we have a thing called a "driving test", made up of two parts - one where people have to demonstrate that the understand the rules of the road theoretically, and another where they have to demonstrate competence whilst actually driving. Then, if those with a driving licence are found to have broken the law with their driving (such as by speeding, drink-driving, or driving through red lights), their licence can be taken away or suspended.