The Invasion of Ukraine

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dyqik
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by dyqik » Thu May 12, 2022 1:58 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 1:56 pm
lpm wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 7:21 am
Stupid fossil fuels. Most border tensions always seem to have a "potential oil deposits" element.

Why oh why don't humans go to war to prevent the exploitation of fossil fuels instead of to steal them.
Won't be long, I expect. Not country-vs-country war, because the countries that are the major victims of fossil fuel use are mostly too poor to fight back against the powerful polluters. Places like India are a bit of an exception, but there are still powerful domestic interests there that want to keep using coal for as long as possible.

But I expect a ramping-up of insurgency and freedom-fighting isn't far off. Years of peaceful protests, up to and including self-immolation, have visibly failed, and we know from history what options that leaves people. Hopefully the targets will be mostly infrastructure.

Interesting article here on young people's anger from a climate economist https://jksteinberger.medium.com/the-ki ... 518fffb475
I suspect it's more likely to result in wars over water, made scarcer due to climate change, or land, where there's a risk of serious displacement of the population due to climate change effects.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 12, 2022 2:10 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 1:58 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 1:56 pm
lpm wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 7:21 am
Stupid fossil fuels. Most border tensions always seem to have a "potential oil deposits" element.

Why oh why don't humans go to war to prevent the exploitation of fossil fuels instead of to steal them.
Won't be long, I expect. Not country-vs-country war, because the countries that are the major victims of fossil fuel use are mostly too poor to fight back against the powerful polluters. Places like India are a bit of an exception, but there are still powerful domestic interests there that want to keep using coal for as long as possible.

But I expect a ramping-up of insurgency and freedom-fighting isn't far off. Years of peaceful protests, up to and including self-immolation, have visibly failed, and we know from history what options that leaves people. Hopefully the targets will be mostly infrastructure.

Interesting article here on young people's anger from a climate economist https://jksteinberger.medium.com/the-ki ... 518fffb475
I suspect it's more likely to result in wars over water, made scarcer due to climate change, or land, where there's a risk of serious displacement of the population due to climate change effects.
I'm sure all those reactions will happen, yes. Catastrophic consequences for some regions are already baked in.

But people who are serious about limiting warming to ~1.5°C (bad enough, but not as catastrophic as 2°C+) are also rapidly re-evaluating their strategies.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Martin Y » Thu May 12, 2022 3:24 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 7:21 am
Stupid fossil fuels. Most border tensions always seem to have a "potential oil deposits" element.

Why oh why don't humans go to war to prevent the exploitation of fossil fuels instead of to steal them.
How many divisions does Extinction Rebellion have?

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by monkey » Thu May 12, 2022 3:30 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 3:24 pm
lpm wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 7:21 am
Stupid fossil fuels. Most border tensions always seem to have a "potential oil deposits" element.

Why oh why don't humans go to war to prevent the exploitation of fossil fuels instead of to steal them.
How many divisions does Extinction Rebellion have?
They're mostly left wing, so there's probably plenty of internal splits.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 12, 2022 3:51 pm

XR are ideologically devoted to non-violence. It's why they're always giving cops flowers and stuff. They've swallowed the revisionist whitewashing of stuff like the US civil rights movement as a purely non-violent process, and are therefore trying to emulate something that never happened.

That's not to stop some splinter group calling themselves XR, of course (especially as it's so decentralised), but it would be a strange choice of label to apply to yourself while adopting very non-XR tactics.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Sciolus » Thu May 12, 2022 7:41 pm

Boris Johnson said rather than wrote:The anger and the impatience of the world will be uncontainable unless we make this COP26 in Glasgow the moment when we get real about climate change.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Grumble » Fri May 13, 2022 6:29 am

Because Russia hasn’t declared war Russian soldiers can refuse to fight, and their only punishment is to be sacked.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Fri May 13, 2022 7:40 am

Grumble wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 6:29 am
Because Russia hasn’t declared war Russian soldiers can refuse to fight, and their only punishment is to be sacked.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other
I think that would be better summarized as they can refuse to be sent to the special military operation. I'd be very surprised is someone wasn't to be punished if they refused to fight in the middle of a battle.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by lpm » Fri May 13, 2022 8:35 am

Er... guys... I mean come on, just because something is written on paper doesn't mean it has any validity in Putin's Russia.

A handful of troops might have got away with it, but 99% who try it will get the sh.t beaten out of them.

And I wonder what percentage of British WW2 troops told their commanders they weren't going to fight and were discreetly transferred to other roles where they could be useful rather than let them be disruptive on the front line.

The Guardian comes across as pretty naive in this article.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Sat May 14, 2022 1:14 am

The occupant, a short film made from found footage from a Russian soldier’s phone.
https://youtu.be/WIZIspwem2s

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Sat May 14, 2022 5:38 am

A map doing the rounds on twitter showing Russia’s decreasing ambitions. I don’t know who made it originally.
72428390-9583-4F22-AD73-8459488495AD.jpeg
72428390-9583-4F22-AD73-8459488495AD.jpeg (251.14 KiB) Viewed 328 times
It looks like their main goal now to capture a city.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat May 14, 2022 5:49 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 5:38 am
A map doing the rounds on twitter showing Russia’s decreasing ambitions. I don’t know who made it originally.

72428390-9583-4F22-AD73-8459488495AD.jpeg

It looks like their main goal now to capture a city.
The failed crossing at Bilohorivka potentially represented an attempt at an even smaller encirclement than the "June 2022?" one on the map, just targetting the encirclement of Lyschansk and Sievierodonetsk

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Mon May 16, 2022 9:34 pm

Russian tv commentator tells it like it is: https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/statu ... ICdF-klt1g

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon May 16, 2022 9:53 pm

Buses leaving Azovstal, address by Zelenskyy later. I am obviously very worried for the defenders if they surrender; Russia has murdered and tortured Azov regiment members in the past when they have captured them.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon May 16, 2022 10:40 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:53 pm
Buses leaving Azovstal, address by Zelenskyy later. I am obviously very worried for the defenders if they surrender; Russia has murdered and tortured Azov regiment members in the past when they have captured them.
Looks like a prisoner exchange to get the wounded out. We'll see if Russia honour the deal, given they are going via Russian territory.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Tue May 17, 2022 6:14 am

The BBC (radio news) said that Putin is now taking personal charge of many aspects of the war and taking decisions that more junior officers would normally take.

Unfortunately I can't find a link
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Grumble » Tue May 17, 2022 6:19 am

jimbob wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 6:14 am
The BBC (radio news) said that Putin is now taking personal charge of many aspects of the war and taking decisions that more junior officers would normally take.

Unfortunately I can't find a link
Same story
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other

It’s entirely possible that this is propaganda, especially in the wake of the disastrous river crossing that has Russian military bloggers asking “who ordered this?”
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Tue May 17, 2022 6:36 am

I hope it is true.

Because what would really turn this into a shitshow for the Russians is a former spy running military operations at a tactical and strategic level.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Martin_B » Tue May 17, 2022 7:22 am

I can see this working for the short-term, with Russia making gains as a result of Putin taking strategic decisions. I'm also certain that he won't be thinking about how to supply and reinforce any gained ground, so that any gains quickly turn into retreats/surrenders as much of the early gains in the north did. Which will go down well in the Kremlin.

Has anyone made a Ukraine invasion version of that Hitler bunker scene from Downfall, or is that tempting fate too much?
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by lpm » Tue May 17, 2022 7:52 am

Why would Russia make gains as a result of Putin taking strategic decisions?

We're not at Steiner divisions yet, but a lot of what's reported to Putin is face-saving actions. Hitting things in order to report to the boss that you've hit things.

There's no evidence there's gains to be had with different leadership anywhere in the chain of command. At least, not under current strategy. The only way to gain territory now is to leave defenders dug in, withdraw as much as possible, rest and re-equip, train reservists, and then try another offensive in the summer. Russia has to get out of the daily attrition rut fast.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Tue May 17, 2022 7:53 am

Martin_B wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 7:22 am
I can see this working for the short-term, with Russia making gains as a result of Putin taking strategic decisions. I'm also certain that he won't be thinking about how to supply and reinforce any gained ground, so that any gains quickly turn into retreats/surrenders as much of the early gains in the north did. Which will go down well in the Kremlin.

Has anyone made a Ukraine invasion version of that Hitler bunker scene from Downfall, or is that tempting fate too much?
. It's at the tactical level - at the level of colonel or brigadier. I'm just imagining how that's going to play with the chain of command if he issues orders at that level, or even if officers think he might. I can imagine it reducing the scope for initiative and responding to events even more than before.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Tue May 17, 2022 7:58 am

Compare and contrast with Zelenskyy, who handles political matters and international relations, while leaving General Zaluzhny and the rest of the Ukrainian military leadership to get on with actually fighting the war.

Zaluzhny, incidentally, was promoted to full general near the start of the war. If the Ukrainian army really does manage to put nearly a million armed troops in the field, he could be in line for a baton at this rate.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by TopBadger » Tue May 17, 2022 8:13 am

Putin now says Sweden and Finland joining NATO is fine

So it's gone from 'serious consequences' to 'fine' in a matter of days. Seems Putin in scrambling to try to stay in front of developments he has no control over and no response to.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Gfamily » Tue May 17, 2022 8:28 am

TopBadger wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 8:13 am
Putin now says Sweden and Finland joining NATO is fine

So it's gone from 'serious consequences' to 'fine' in a matter of days. Seems Putin in scrambling to try to stay in front of developments he has no control over and no response to.
That might be said in the light of Turkey saying they'll veto them joining NATO on the grounds that they "harbour terrorists", having turned down Turkey's extradition requests against PKK members living in the two countries.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Tue May 17, 2022 8:29 am

TopBadger wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 8:13 am
Putin now says Sweden and Finland joining NATO is fine

So it's gone from 'serious consequences' to 'fine' in a matter of days. Seems Putin in scrambling to try to stay in front of developments he has no control over and no response to.
Indeed, even he cannot threaten nuclear Armageddon over everything.

Which is why the West should salami slice up their military aid to Ukraine
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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