The Invasion of Ukraine

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TimW
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by TimW » Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:36 am

Martin Y wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:11 pm
If you redefine "civilian facilities" to exclude things like power facilities supplying electricity to civilians, then that magically becomes true. The Russians probably did not intend to expend a cruise missile blowing up a children's playground.
But surely you don't believe the only reason for that sort of thing happening is because of Ukranian counterfire.
Rather than denying Ukrainian children access to swings, they wanted to deny them access to electricity, so they can freeze to death for the glory of Russia.
Still, they don't much mind just randomly blowing them to pieces.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am

TimW wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:36 am
Martin Y wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:11 pm
Rather than denying Ukrainian children access to swings, they wanted to deny them access to electricity, so they can freeze to death for the glory of Russia.
Still, they don't much mind just randomly blowing them to pieces.
Or throwing them into fast flowing rivers to drown or locking them in buildings and burning them down, at least according to one recent guest on RT.

It was always a diabolical channel. It behaved just the same towards Syrians then as it does to Ukrainians now. Remember who went on it, and shun them forever.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:29 am

Russians destroying communications cables in Kherson city

While it's likely the Russians are planning to abandon right-bank Kherson, it is also possible this is a measure intended to further suppress an already oppressed occupied population.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Martin Y » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:44 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am
... Or throwing them into fast flowing rivers to drown or locking them in buildings and burning them down, at least according to one recent guest on RT.
At the end of this piece, where Russia expresses concern that Ukraine might be going to use a dirty bomb (to contaminate Ukraine?) and thereby clearly flagging that Russia intends to do so itself, there's an "in other developments" item suggesting that might not have been the sort of thing that RT want to tell their audience. Either because it's utterly depraved and insane or because it's betraying Russia's tactical intentions, it's not clear which:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63369175
Russia's RT state broadcaster said it was suspending its senior employee Anton Krasovsky, after he was heard saying in a TV programme that Ukrainian children should be drowned or burned to death

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:46 am

Martin Y wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:44 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am
... Or throwing them into fast flowing rivers to drown or locking them in buildings and burning them down, at least according to one recent guest on RT.
At the end of this piece, where Russia expresses concern that Ukraine might be going to use a dirty bomb (to contaminate Ukraine?) and thereby clearly flagging that Russia intends to do so itself, there's an "in other developments" item suggesting that might not have been the sort of thing that RT want to tell their audience. Either because it's utterly depraved and insane or because it's betraying Russia's tactical intentions, it's not clear which:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63369175
Russia's RT state broadcaster said it was suspending its senior employee Anton Krasovsky, after he was heard saying in a TV programme that Ukrainian children should be drowned or burned to death
Just for added WTF, Krasovsky is an HIV+ openly gay man.

Not what you would expect in Russian propaganda
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:52 am

Martin Y wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:44 am
where Russia expresses concern that Ukraine might be going to use a dirty bomb (to contaminate Ukraine?) and thereby clearly flagging that Russia intends to do so itself
I'm pleased to see a firm response from western governments to this, and concerned that it involves the likes of Shoigu as well as the usual propagandists, however, in general, that sort of rot from Russia does not correlate particularly with their behaviour. Accusations of imminent false flag gas attacks, for example, did not have any particular connection to when Assad used gas in Syria.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:59 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:52 am
Martin Y wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:44 am
where Russia expresses concern that Ukraine might be going to use a dirty bomb (to contaminate Ukraine?) and thereby clearly flagging that Russia intends to do so itself
I'm pleased to see a firm response from western governments to this, and concerned that it involves the likes of Shoigu as well as the usual propagandists, however, in general, that sort of rot from Russia does not correlate particularly with their behaviour. Accusations of imminent false flag gas attacks, for example, did not have any particular connection to when Assad used gas in Syria.
https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status ... q2XA_wynJA

Yes literally reusing anti White Helmets propaganda from Syria. As in exactly the same stills from a film.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:08 pm

Russian "Journalist" Simon Pegov apparently stepped on a butterfly mine.

Sadly, he lost a few toes.

Those familiar with his work were hoping for at least a whole leg.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:17 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:08 pm
Russian "Journalist" Simon Pegov apparently stepped on a butterfly mine.

Sadly, he lost a few toes.

Those familiar with his work were hoping for at least a whole leg.
It looks very minor for such a weapon designed to maim. Unfortunately.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by TimW » Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:29 pm

Pegov??

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Martin Y
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Martin Y » Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:20 pm

TimW wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:29 pm
Pegov??
I know. Me too. I'm not proud of it but there it is.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:48 pm

TimW wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:29 pm
Pegov??
Semen Pegov, sorry. Got the c.nts name wrong, probably because of the ongoing health crisis/meds needed to deal with it I'm currently dealing with.

If you are familiar with his work, you will share my disappointment that it was just a couple of toes.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:02 am

I also enjoy when journalists are maimed.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:04 am

Also, Semen is a funny name. It reminds me of that stuff, you know.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:05 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:02 am
I also enjoy when journalists are maimed.
Lol. Evidently you know nothing of Pegov's work.

Starting with he's not a f.cking journalist.

He was one of the people involved in the false-flags in mid-february this year - specifically the claim that Ukrainians tried to assassinate the head of the so-called "DPR" with a car bomb, which involved blowing up an old, worn out car after fitting it with the numberplates of that inviduals much more modern* car.

This was part of the campaign Russia waged to try and justify their invasion, which was also likely aimed at minimising western support for Ukraine by falsely painting Ukraine as the aggressor. He was an integral part of that even while the majority of the army and VDV apparently thought they were on exercises.

Subsequently, he put out a report which included the bodies of Ukrainian troops that he falsely painted as Azov saboteurs, yet expert analysis concluded they'd been murdered execution-style, by gunshots to the back of the head, potentially implicating him or his associates in their murder.

Pretty much everywhere Russia and its proxies commit atrocities and try to spin it to the world, he's there, supporting them in that. He's well connected, he knows what's going on, and he is an eager participant. He wrote a book dedicated to Arsen Sergeyevich f.cking Pavlov. Look at all the suffering in Ukraine right now and remember that he was an integral part of the team trying to make that happen.


So yeah, I am pleased that an integral part of Putin's hybrid war machine got his toes blown off by a mine that was most likely laid by his own side, and I am disappointed it was only his toes.


*As in completely different model of car more modern.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:07 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:04 am
Also, Semen is a funny name. It reminds me of that stuff, you know.
It's literally just a transliteration of Семён. It means Simon. Do please grow up.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:56 am

A group of 30 House liberals is urging President Biden to dramatically shift his strategy on the Ukraine war and pursue direct negotiations with Russia, the first time prominent members of his own party have pushed him to change his approach to Ukraine.

A letter sent by the group to the White House on Monday, first reported by The Washington Post, could create more pressure on Biden as he tries to sustain domestic support for the war effort, at a time when the region is heading into a potentially difficult winter and Republicans are threatening to cut aid to Ukraine if they retake Congress.

In the letter, the 30 Democrats led by Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, call on Biden to pair the unprecedented economic and military support the United States is providing Ukraine with a “proactive diplomatic push, redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a cease fire.”

The Democrats are specifically concerned that the United States is not engaging in regular dialogue with Russia as part of its effort to end a protracted war that has caused thousands of deaths and displaced 13 million people. The Biden administration has been adamant that it is up to Kyiv whether and when to negotiate with Russia, arguing that Ukrainians as a free people should decide their fate.
Many Democrats fiercely pushed back on the letter, prompting Jayapal to put out a statement later on Monday “clarifying” the position the progressives outlined in the letter, stressing that they still supported Ukraine and Biden’s commitment to ensure Ukraine is represented in any discussions about its future.

“Let me be clear: we are united as Democrats in our unequivocal commitment to supporting Ukraine in their fight for their democracy and freedom in the face of the illegal and outrageous Russian invasion,” Jayapal said. “Diplomacy is an important tool that can save lives — but it is just one tool.”

Some Russia experts say Moscow will only negotiate with the United States, a fellow superpower. The lawmakers say that opening must be seized given the war’s spreading devastation, adding, “The alternative to diplomacy is protracted war, with both its attendant certainties and catastrophic and unknowable risks.”

The lawmakers also noted that Biden himself has said there will eventually have to be a negotiated settlement, though he has never said when.

“Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. It’s their territory. I’m not going to tell them what they should and shouldn’t do,” Biden said in June. “But it appears to me that, at some point along the line, there’s going to have to be a negotiated settlement here. And what that entails, I don’t know.”

The liberal Democrats note that the war’s disastrous consequences are increasingly felt far beyond Ukraine, including elevated food and gas prices in the United States and spikes in the price of wheat, fertilizer and fuel that have created global food shortages, not to mention the danger of a nuclear attack by Moscow.

White House spokesman John Kirby, responding to the lawmakers’ letter, said the administration “appreciates their very thoughtful concerns” but reiterated that the Ukrainians must be central to any diplomatic overtures.
“We’re not going to have conversations with the Russian leadership without the Ukrainians being represented,” Kirby said during a briefing with reporters. “Mr. Zelensky gets to determine — because it’s his country — what success looks like and when to negotiate.”

[…]

Pro-Ukraine voices both in the United States and in Europe often note that any settlement short of Ukraine expelling every Russian troop — and retaking Crimea — would reward a hostile power who invaded a nation unprovoked.

The lawmakers are at pains to differentiate themselves from the Republicans who are also challenging Biden’s approach to Ukraine. Some conservatives are now questioning U.S. aid to Ukraine because of its cost and, in a few cases, voicing apparent sympathy for Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Story continues below advertisement

“We are under no illusions regarding the difficulties involved in engaging Russia given its outrageous and illegal invasion of Ukraine,” the Democrats’ letter states. “If there is a way to end the war while preserving a free and independent Ukraine, it is America’s responsibility to pursue every diplomatic avenue to support such a solution that is acceptable to the people of Ukraine.”

The letter was signed by some of the best-known and most outspoken liberal Democrats in Congress, including Reps. Jamie Raskin (Md.), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (N.Y.), Cori Bush (Mo.), Ro Khanna (Calif.) and Ilhan Omar (Minn.).
For now, their position remains a minority in the Democratic Party, which has overwhelmingly supported Biden’s denunciations of Russia and his spearheading of a global coalition to funnel massive support to Ukraine. Biden has framed the conflict as part of his broader view that the world is witnessing a historic confrontation between authoritarianism and democracy.

“There is moral and strategic peril in sitting down with Putin too early. It risks legitimizing his crimes and handing over parts of Ukraine to Russia in an agreement that Putin won’t even honor,” Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) wrote on Twitter. “Sometimes, a bully must be shown the limits of his power before diplomacy can work.”

Not even every member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus joined in Monday’s call for a change in strategy. Rep. Ruben Gallego (D-Ariz.) indicated he supported providing Ukraine enough aid and weapons to win the war outright.

The liberals’ appeal for a shift in strategy comes amid some of the most significant U.S.-Russian diplomatic engagement in some time, as Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin recently talked with his Russian counterpart, Sergei Shoigu, for the first time in months. The two spoke by phone Friday and again on Sunday at Shoigu’s request, Austin wrote on Twitter.
Despite Biden’s success so far in rallying support for Ukraine, he now faces the prospect of cracks in the coalition as Europe heads into a difficult winter, gas prices remain high at home, Putin threatens nuclear actions and both sides appear to be digging in for the long, bl..dy haul.

Biden scrambles to avert cracks in pro-Ukraine coalition
In the United States, most of the challenges to date have come from the right, as some conservatives question spending billions of dollars on the faraway war. House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) — who would be likely to become speaker if the Republicans retake the House on Nov. 8 — signaled last week that a GOP-led House would oppose more aid to Ukraine.

“I think people are going to be sitting in a recession, and they’re not going to write a blank check to Ukraine,” he told Punchbowl News. “They just won’t do it.”
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), speaking Monday at an international summit on Russia’s aggression against Ukraine, downplayed the possibility that U.S. aid to Ukraine would end if Republicans take the House.

[…]

But the liberals’ letter suggests pressure may now start coming from the left as well — albeit for different reasons — creating a political pincer movement that would make it harder for the president to blame opposition to his Ukraine policy solely on Republicans.

When asked how long the United States can be expected to pour billions into the war effort, Biden and his top aides frequently say, “as long as it takes.” But privately, U.S. officials say neither Russia nor Ukraine is capable of winning the war outright, suggesting a fundamental change in dynamic would be required if the conflict is to end in the foreseeable future.

For now, Biden’s aides have ruled out the idea of pushing or even nudging Ukraine to the negotiating table, saying it is a matter of principle that nations get to decide their own fate. They say they do not know what the end of the war looks like or when it might happen, insisting that it is up to Kyiv.
But a growing number of lawmakers and foreign policy experts are challenging that position, arguing that Russia will not take any negotiations seriously unless the United States is at the table, given its leadership of the West and its investment in Ukraine’s war effort.

“The risk of the strategy is it has no conception of an endgame,” said George Beebe, director of grand strategy at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, adding, “It’s a recipe for continuing this war.” The Quincy Institute, which advocates for diplomatic solutions to international conflicts, is one of several groups that endorsed the liberal lawmakers’ letter after seeing an early version.

Behind the liberals’ concern is the reality that the war only seems to be escalating. Russia last month illegally annexed four Ukrainian territories, a move condemned by more than 140 countries at the United Nations. Putin has also repeatedly threatened to use nuclear weapons, prompting Biden to warn that the world faces the most serious “prospect of Armageddon in 60 years.”

“President Biden said quite accurately that if present trends continue, we could be headed toward the most dangerous crisis we’ve faced since the Cuban missile crisis. The question then is, what do we do about that?” said Beebe, who served as director of the CIA’s Russia analysis team and as special adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney. “Simply saying it’s up to Ukraine to decide is abdicating the responsibility America’s leaders have to safeguard the security in all of this.”

[…]

The letter’s signatories indicated that for now they will still support Ukraine aid packages, but it remains unclear whether that would continue if Biden does not soon pursue a diplomatic track.

“We agree with the administration’s perspective that it is not America’s place to pressure Ukraine’s government regarding sovereign decisions,” the letter says. “But as legislators responsible for the expenditure of tens of billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars in military assistance in the conflict, we believe such involvement in this war also creates a responsibility for the United States to seriously explore all possible avenues.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... -liberals/

IMHO there is no contradiction between diplomacy and assistance for Ukraine. Of course the US should talk to Russia. But make sure that the US’s preconditions are also Ukraine’s preconditions.

Also, the most likely path to a long-term protracted war would be if the US and it’s allies were to provide Ukraine with enough aid to prevent it from losing, but not enough to enable it to win.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:08 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:08 pm
Russian "Journalist" Simon Pegov apparently stepped on a butterfly mine.

Sadly, he lost a few toes.

Those familiar with his work were hoping for at least a whole leg.
EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:05 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:02 am
I also enjoy when journalists are maimed.
Lol. Evidently you know nothing of Pegov's work.

Starting with he's not a f.cking journalist.
It would be good idea if people could avoid using terms whose context will only be understood by those who have followed every post here or other obscure sources. Pegov isn't exactly a household name and his actions aren't common knowledge.

This exchange is an example of why the mods and overlords don't like megathreads. The discussion becomes useful for only a few regulars who have been following every move.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:12 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:08 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:08 pm
Russian "Journalist" Simon Pegov apparently stepped on a butterfly mine.

Sadly, he lost a few toes.

Those familiar with his work were hoping for at least a whole leg.
EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:05 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:02 am
I also enjoy when journalists are maimed.
Lol. Evidently you know nothing of Pegov's work.

Starting with he's not a f.cking journalist.
It would be good idea if people could avoid using terms whose context will only be understood by those who have followed every post here or other obscure sources. Pegov isn't exactly a household name and his actions aren't common knowledge.

This exchange is an example of why the mods and overlords don't like megathreads. The discussion becomes useful for only a few regulars who have been following every move.
I've spent the last week typing left handed because I can't safely move my right arm. It would have taken BOAF a few seconds to google Semen Pegov before posting.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by plodder » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:14 am

Oh Boaf you are hopeless, it's all your fault

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:32 am

Lavrov continuing false flag drumbeat. Says Ukraine has nuclear device, part of claims Ukraine will attack themselves with dirty bomb.

We know this is b.llsh.t. We know false flags very rare, and rarely involve real self harm - like Russia blowing up autopsied corpse in fake bomb in feb, not live person.

While main theory is this is info op for Russ use of such, more to it than that. Is sufficiently obvious that all in the know read it as threat. More likely use of threat to test west's resolve than plan with actual dirty bomb.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bolo » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:43 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:07 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:04 am
Also, Semen is a funny name. It reminds me of that stuff, you know.
It's literally just a transliteration of Семён. It means Simon. Do please grow up.
A more usual transliteration is Semyon.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:11 pm

bolo wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:43 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:07 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:04 am
Also, Semen is a funny name. It reminds me of that stuff, you know.
It's literally just a transliteration of Семён. It means Simon. Do please grow up.
A more usual transliteration is Semyon.
My source said Semen, and that's the usual way Ukrainians transliterate it, as far as I can tell, and my source was Ukrainian. Obviously the Russian transliteration would be more appropriate for that bastard.

Either way, "foreign name sounds a bit silly in English" is far from the heights of humour, and should be avoided lest we all be buried under an avalanche of Mustafa jokes.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:29 pm

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/ ... bhFJJHgiLA

Arguing that he might have been shot in the foot by his own side rather than a butterfly mine
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:59 am

Russian propaganda has now decided that there is a need to, and I quote, "de-Satanise" Ukraine.

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