The Invasion of Ukraine

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IvanV
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by IvanV » Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:14 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:45 am
Russian strategy appears to be to use energy to put pressure on the West to stop supporting Ukraine.
I think they have decided that didn't work, when they actually blow the pipelines up. They have decided that they will now have an extended conflict with the west for the foreseeable future.

The Cold War worked well for keeping the Soviet leaders in charge. Perhaps they think The New Cold War With Localised Hot Spots will work well for keeping the KGB in charge in Russia.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:53 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:05 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:45 am
Russian strategy appears to be to use energy fossil fuel supplies to put pressure on the West to stop supporting Ukraine.

A use of nuclear weapons need not involve massive casualties. For example, Putin may calculate that a high altitude explosion over the Baltic might be enough to intimidate Europeans.
At a time when the majority of the population in the West supports trying to stop using fossil fuels, that correction is pretty pertinent.

It's a bit like threatening the vodka supplies of someone who wants to cut down on their drinking.
A better analogy might be threatening the food supplies of someone who wants to go on a diet.

They’d like to cut down. But they don’t want to starve for months on end.

If Russia were to sabotage the North Sea gas pipelines then millions in Britain would fave a winter without gas for domestic heating or cooking.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by dyqik » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:15 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:53 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:05 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:45 am
Russian strategy appears to be to use energy fossil fuel supplies to put pressure on the West to stop supporting Ukraine.

A use of nuclear weapons need not involve massive casualties. For example, Putin may calculate that a high altitude explosion over the Baltic might be enough to intimidate Europeans.
At a time when the majority of the population in the West supports trying to stop using fossil fuels, that correction is pretty pertinent.

It's a bit like threatening the vodka supplies of someone who wants to cut down on their drinking.
A better analogy might be threatening the food supplies of someone who wants to go on a diet.

They’d like to cut down. But they don’t want to starve for months on end.

If Russia were to sabotage the North Sea gas pipelines then millions in Britain would fave a winter without gas for domestic heating or cooking.
No, that's not really a better analogy. There are multiple energy sources available to Britain etc. right now, including other sources of fossil fuels as well as nuclear and renewables. So it's not a question of starving, it's a question of meat suddenly getting more expensive.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:44 pm

Yeah, and meeting the Paris Agreement - as presumably the West genuinely intend to do, or they'd look preposterously hypocritical trying to get anyone else to follow international law - meant no new fossil fuel developments starting last year, and leaving a bunch of current reserves in the ground.

But it's been obvious since March that there'd be no Russian gas this winter and pretty much all they've done is ramp up climate -wrecking extraction.

So it's more like threatening the vodka supplies of somebody who keeps promising to everyone around them that they want to quit drinking, but would really prefer to keep drinking themselves into oblivion.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:16 am

bob sterman wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:47 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:14 am
To reiterate: There is no evidence Russia has changed its nuclear posture.
By "posture" I assume you mean location and status of weapons etc.
Yes, as opposed to doctrine. Their tactical nukes are not stored ready for immediate use, and there hasn't been the slightest move to change this to date.

Nor was there the last time we had a wave of press hysteria on the subject. The current panic seems to be more driven by a) media reports quoting Putin while neglecting the context in which he was speaking and b) media reports about those media reports, and then more about those reports and so on.

Because Putin's speech mentioned nukes in the context of a western Nuclear attack on Russia.
Because its broader posture has not changed either - i.e. it is prepared to use tactical nuclear weapons "in response to large-scale aggression utilizing conventional weapons in situations critical to the national security of the Russian Federation."
I've been digging around the different translations of Russian nuclear doctrine, and the wording you use appears to be a translation of their doctrine from 2000. More recently, the standard translation seems to be "aggression against the Russian Federation with the use of conventional weapons when the very existence of the state is in jeopardy". This is talking about first use of tactical nukes - response to nuclear attacks is a separate issue.

That said, it's not particularly useful to try and analyse the exact wording of translations. If anyone here has Russian good enough to understand the written doctrine in context, I'd greatly appreciate their input.
And it is about to expand the definition of "Russian Federation" to include territory that is part of Ukraine - and Ukrainian forces are going to attempt to retake that territory using NATO supplied weapons.

Yes Russia are using their nuclear doctrine and threats to attempt to coerce the Ukraine / the west into backing down on these regions. But if backed into a corner it is not safe to assume that Russia won't do exactly what its doctrine has said it will do for many years.
I'm not saying it is safe - in the absolute sense of the word - but we aren't dealing with a scenario where there is any safe option. The question is whether or not it is safer to reward the Russians rhetoric about nukes and thus encourage them to keep doing it and encourage every other nuclear state to act the same way and non-nuclear states to go nuclear so they can act that way, or to call what is very likely a bluff and continue to arm Ukraine with conventional weapons, while not disregarding the threat of escalation.

And I say rhetoric for a reason, for while the Russian press, Medvedev and sometimes Putin like to sabre-rattle, the posture of their nuclear forces hasn't changed, just like they didn't actually change their behaviour at all when Putin talked about putting nuclear forces on alert much earlier in the war.

If Putin had any intention of using nukes to settle things any time soon, it is very unlikely he'd have taken the politically dangerous step of mobilising hundreds of thousands of Russians, and thus sparking unrest in several areas.

It is correct that the west should remain very alert. It is correct that they should reinforce the idea of dreadful consequences for Putin and Russia if they go nuclear. But there is absolutely no reason to panic, and media outlets breathlessly reporting on each other's reporting to amplify panic and get those sweet page views are not helping the situation here.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bob sterman » Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:41 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:16 am
bob sterman wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:47 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:14 am
To reiterate: There is no evidence Russia has changed its nuclear posture.
By "posture" I assume you mean location and status of weapons etc.
Yes, as opposed to doctrine. Their tactical nukes are not stored ready for immediate use, and there hasn't been the slightest move to change this to date.

Nor was there the last time we had a wave of press hysteria on the subject. The current panic seems to be more driven by a) media reports quoting Putin while neglecting the context in which he was speaking and b) media reports about those media reports, and then more about those reports and so on.

Because Putin's speech mentioned nukes in the context of a western Nuclear attack on Russia.
Because its broader posture has not changed either - i.e. it is prepared to use tactical nuclear weapons "in response to large-scale aggression utilizing conventional weapons in situations critical to the national security of the Russian Federation."
I've been digging around the different translations of Russian nuclear doctrine, and the wording you use appears to be a translation of their doctrine from 2000. More recently, the standard translation seems to be "aggression against the Russian Federation with the use of conventional weapons when the very existence of the state is in jeopardy". This is talking about first use of tactical nukes - response to nuclear attacks is a separate issue.

That said, it's not particularly useful to try and analyse the exact wording of translations. If anyone here has Russian good enough to understand the written doctrine in context, I'd greatly appreciate their input.
Yes - there are different translations and interpretations of the doctrine.

For a good discussion of what it means - from 2020 - take a look at this which discusses whether use of tactical nuclear weapons to "de-escalate" a conventional conflict is in fact part of the Russian doctrine...

Is 'Escalate to Deescalate' Part of Russia’s Nuclear Toolbox?
https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/ ... ar-toolbox

There is quote from Putin himself - and remember this was from 2018 long before things got so difficult for him...
Putin’s own comments on the topic came during the October 2018 meeting of the Valdai Club, an annual international Putin Valdai 2018 gathering of academics, journalists and policymakers: "In our concept of nuclear weapons use there is no preemptive strike… Our concept is a retaliatory-offensive strike [otvetno-vstrechny udar].7 For those who know, it's not necessary to say what that is; for those who don't know, I'll say again: This means we are prepared to, and will use, nuclear weapons only when we are convinced that someone, a potential aggressor, is attacking Russia, our territory."

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:24 am

While Russia tortures prisoners of war, Ukraine's introducing regular phonecalls home for them.

It doesn't just tell you who is more moral - it tells you who is cleverer, too. Speaking to POW relatives is going to open peoples eyes within Russia in a way that few other things can.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:38 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:24 am
While Russia tortures prisoners of war, Ukraine's introducing regular phonecalls home for them.

It doesn't just tell you who is more moral - it tells you who is cleverer, too. Speaking to POW relatives is going to open peoples eyes within Russia in a way that few other things can.
See also the photographs of the exchanged prisoners.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by TopBadger » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:50 am

Right... if the former Russian POWs end up back on the front I dare say they'll surrender again... having been treated better by 'the enemy' than their own commanders.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bagpuss » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:08 am

dyqik wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:15 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:53 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:05 am


At a time when the majority of the population in the West supports trying to stop using fossil fuels, that correction is pretty pertinent.

It's a bit like threatening the vodka supplies of someone who wants to cut down on their drinking.
A better analogy might be threatening the food supplies of someone who wants to go on a diet.

They’d like to cut down. But they don’t want to starve for months on end.

If Russia were to sabotage the North Sea gas pipelines then millions in Britain would fave a winter without gas for domestic heating or cooking.
No, that's not really a better analogy. There are multiple energy sources available to Britain etc. right now, including other sources of fossil fuels as well as nuclear and renewables. So it's not a question of starving, it's a question of meat suddenly getting more expensive.
Except that a very large number of people in the UK have gas heating, so nuclear and renewables are a bit useless for that. Obviously it would be possible to buy electric heaters but I would be very surprised if there are enough of those ready and available to buy for all of the people with gas central heating. The demand would almost immediately massively outweigh supply. So essentially, for those who don't get in quick, it would be the equivalent of starving, for the specific purposes of heating homes and hot water*.


*Although some, but by no means all, people with gas central heating will also have the ability to heat water via other means, so that's a smaller section of the population.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by dyqik » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:14 am

bagpuss wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:08 am
dyqik wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:15 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:53 pm


A better analogy might be threatening the food supplies of someone who wants to go on a diet.

They’d like to cut down. But they don’t want to starve for months on end.

If Russia were to sabotage the North Sea gas pipelines then millions in Britain would fave a winter without gas for domestic heating or cooking.
No, that's not really a better analogy. There are multiple energy sources available to Britain etc. right now, including other sources of fossil fuels as well as nuclear and renewables. So it's not a question of starving, it's a question of meat suddenly getting more expensive.
Except that a very large number of people in the UK have gas heating, so nuclear and renewables are a bit useless for that. Obviously it would be possible to buy electric heaters but I would be very surprised if there are enough of those ready and available to buy for all of the people with gas central heating. The demand would almost immediately massively outweigh supply. So essentially, for those who don't get in quick, it would be the equivalent of starving, for the specific purposes of heating homes and hot water*.


*Although some, but by no means all, people with gas central heating will also have the ability to heat water via other means, so that's a smaller section of the population.
I'm aware of that, but Russia isn't the only source of natural gas.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bagpuss » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:17 am

dyqik wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:14 am
bagpuss wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:08 am
dyqik wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:15 pm


No, that's not really a better analogy. There are multiple energy sources available to Britain etc. right now, including other sources of fossil fuels as well as nuclear and renewables. So it's not a question of starving, it's a question of meat suddenly getting more expensive.
Except that a very large number of people in the UK have gas heating, so nuclear and renewables are a bit useless for that. Obviously it would be possible to buy electric heaters but I would be very surprised if there are enough of those ready and available to buy for all of the people with gas central heating. The demand would almost immediately massively outweigh supply. So essentially, for those who don't get in quick, it would be the equivalent of starving, for the specific purposes of heating homes and hot water*.


*Although some, but by no means all, people with gas central heating will also have the ability to heat water via other means, so that's a smaller section of the population.
I'm aware of that, but Russia isn't the only source of natural gas.
True 'nuff but I was just pointing out that your references to nuclear and renewables weren't much use for the main usage of gas in the UK. At least, I should probably fact check that, as maybe cooking is a higher proportion of usage than I'm expecting - not everyone is like us with gas heating/hot water and all-electric for cooking.

ETA: I've quickly skimmed, don't have time for more detailed digging right now, but figures seem to confirm that space heating is very much the highest usage of gas domestically. Waters get more muddied when you look across all sectors and look at other usage, especially as some end usage figures seem to ignore gas used for electricity production as that doesn't count as end usage, but I think it's fair to say that what I assumed is indeed true for domestic gas usage

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by nekomatic » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:28 am

bagpuss wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:17 am
At least, I should probably fact check that, as maybe cooking is a higher proportion of usage than I'm expecting - not everyone is like us with gas heating/hot water and all-electric for cooking.
Based on a quick squizz at my Octopus dashboard, I think that’s unlikely. On days we used gas for hot water only and electricity for cooking and everything else, energy for gas and electricity was roughly equal (about 10 kWh a day each in our case). When the gas heating went on, even only for a couple of hours, the gas use dwarfs the electricity.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:40 am

Six months would've been plenty of time to start some insulation and electrification programs too, if only for the highest-priority properties. And it's still a good idea, of course.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:41 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:40 am
Six months would've been plenty of time to start some insulation and electrification programs too, if only for the highest-priority properties. And it's still a good idea, of course.
Electrification programs don't achieve much when our grid is heavily dependant on gas.

Including for covering those awkward periods when the wind is blowing very much and its dark and all those battery storage units people fantasise about are still firmly in the realms of fantasy.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:51 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:41 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:40 am
Six months would've been plenty of time to start some insulation and electrification programs too, if only for the highest-priority properties. And it's still a good idea, of course.
Electrification programs don't achieve much when our grid is heavily dependant on gas.

Including for covering those awkward periods when the wind is blowing very much and its dark and all those battery storage units people fantasise about are still firmly in the realms of fantasy.
It does when complemented by renewable and/or nuclear energy, as dyqik mentioned. Tends to be pretty windy round the UK during winter.

And insulation lowers demand in the first place, which is even more useful.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:40 am
Six months would've been plenty of time to start some insulation
Are there large numbers of insulation installers sitting around doing nothing? If no, how do you suddenly create a big increase in installed insulation? And that assumes the materials are freely available - if they are subject to supply chain problems, like so many things are now, they could be another bottleneck.
and electrification programs too, if only for the highest-priority properties. And it's still a good idea, of course.
Urgently converting something from gas to electricity only makes sense when it saves a lot of gas and there is capacity to generate the extra electricity. See gridwatch.co.uk to see that over the last two years gas has been extensively used. So extra generating capacity would come from running gas generators for more of the time - we're not going to be building new power stations fast enough to make a difference in the short term.

For now, the solution has to be to use less energy so that there is enough to go around.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Grumble » Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:23 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:36 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:40 am
Six months would've been plenty of time to start some insulation
Are there large numbers of insulation installers sitting around doing nothing? If no, how do you suddenly create a big increase in installed insulation? And that assumes the materials are freely available - if they are subject to supply chain problems, like so many things are now, they could be another bottleneck.
and electrification programs too, if only for the highest-priority properties. And it's still a good idea, of course.
Urgently converting something from gas to electricity only makes sense when it saves a lot of gas and there is capacity to generate the extra electricity. See gridwatch.co.uk to see that over the last two years gas has been extensively used. So extra generating capacity would come from running gas generators for more of the time - we're not going to be building new power stations fast enough to make a difference in the short term.

For now, the solution has to be to use less energy so that there is enough to go around.
Correctly installed heat pumps running off electricity generated by burning gas use less gas than boilers, because of the heat gain effect (1 unit of electrical heat becomes 3-4 units of usable heat)
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bjn » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:02 am

Heat pumps also kill the hydrogen heating fantasy. If you crack H2 from water and burn it in a boiler you are getting something like 1/6th the heat you would have got from using that electricity in a heat pump. That’s after you’ve spent a fortune upgrading infrastructure, pipes and boilers to handle H2.

Also, spend money on insulation first. Heating not needed is energy saved.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:12 am

bjn wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:02 am
Heat pumps also kill the hydrogen heating fantasy. If you crack H2 from water and burn it in a boiler you are getting something like 1/6th the heat you would have got from using that electricity in a heat pump. That’s after you’ve spent a fortune upgrading infrastructure, pipes and boilers to handle H2.

Also, spend money on insulation first. Heating not needed is energy saved.
Can we please obsess over heat pumps on the multiple threads we have on power generation and decarbonisation? I just came here to post about a group of Sri Lankans in Ukraine who were treated as slaves, and the last post actually to do with the invasion was a dozen posts ago.

Electric Shock, Extortion and Slave Labor: How Russia Ran a Detention Camp in Occupied Ukraine

It's important to note that they are using these concentration camps as a money making opportunity by extorting money from Ukrainians for better treatment. This, of course, creates an incentive for the bastards running the camp to make the conditions in general as inhumane as they can.

On a distantly related note, Wagner group are apparently using the recruitment of prisoners as a get-out-of jail scheme. Those with enough money can pose as recruits but spend the whole period living it up in the occupied territories and (they hope) not see the frontline. Those with even more money can "die" in battle, then get the papers of someone who really died and go back to Russia.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:15 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:12 am
bjn wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:02 am
Heat pumps also kill the hydrogen heating fantasy. If you crack H2 from water and burn it in a boiler you are getting something like 1/6th the heat you would have got from using that electricity in a heat pump. That’s after you’ve spent a fortune upgrading infrastructure, pipes and boilers to handle H2.

Also, spend money on insulation first. Heating not needed is energy saved.
Can we please obsess over heat pumps on the multiple threads we have on power generation and decarbonisation? I just came here to post about a group of Sri Lankans in Ukraine who were treated as slaves, and the last post actually to do with the invasion was a dozen posts ago.

Electric Shock, Extortion and Slave Labor: How Russia Ran a Detention Camp in Occupied Ukraine

It's important to note that they are using these concentration camps as a money making opportunity by extorting money from Ukrainians for better treatment. This, of course, creates an incentive for the bastards running the camp to make the conditions in general as inhumane as they can.

On a distantly related note, Wagner group are apparently using the recruitment of prisoners as a get-out-of jail scheme. Those with enough money can pose as recruits but spend the whole period living it up in the occupied territories and (they hope) not see the frontline. Those with even more money can "die" in battle, then get the papers of someone who really died and go back to Russia.
I heard an interview with some Sri Lankans who were rescued by Ukraine a few days ago. It was heartrending.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:17 am

jimbob wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:15 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:12 am
bjn wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:02 am
Heat pumps also kill the hydrogen heating fantasy. If you crack H2 from water and burn it in a boiler you are getting something like 1/6th the heat you would have got from using that electricity in a heat pump. That’s after you’ve spent a fortune upgrading infrastructure, pipes and boilers to handle H2.

Also, spend money on insulation first. Heating not needed is energy saved.
Can we please obsess over heat pumps on the multiple threads we have on power generation and decarbonisation? I just came here to post about a group of Sri Lankans in Ukraine who were treated as slaves, and the last post actually to do with the invasion was a dozen posts ago.

Electric Shock, Extortion and Slave Labor: How Russia Ran a Detention Camp in Occupied Ukraine

It's important to note that they are using these concentration camps as a money making opportunity by extorting money from Ukrainians for better treatment. This, of course, creates an incentive for the bastards running the camp to make the conditions in general as inhumane as they can.

On a distantly related note, Wagner group are apparently using the recruitment of prisoners as a get-out-of jail scheme. Those with enough money can pose as recruits but spend the whole period living it up in the occupied territories and (they hope) not see the frontline. Those with even more money can "die" in battle, then get the papers of someone who really died and go back to Russia.
I heard an interview with some Sri Lankans who were rescued by Ukraine a few days ago. It was heartrending.
Same people, I think.

Concentration camps and slavery in the 21st century.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Grumble » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:34 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:17 am
jimbob wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:15 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:12 am


Can we please obsess over heat pumps on the multiple threads we have on power generation and decarbonisation? I just came here to post about a group of Sri Lankans in Ukraine who were treated as slaves, and the last post actually to do with the invasion was a dozen posts ago.

Electric Shock, Extortion and Slave Labor: How Russia Ran a Detention Camp in Occupied Ukraine

It's important to note that they are using these concentration camps as a money making opportunity by extorting money from Ukrainians for better treatment. This, of course, creates an incentive for the bastards running the camp to make the conditions in general as inhumane as they can.

On a distantly related note, Wagner group are apparently using the recruitment of prisoners as a get-out-of jail scheme. Those with enough money can pose as recruits but spend the whole period living it up in the occupied territories and (they hope) not see the frontline. Those with even more money can "die" in battle, then get the papers of someone who really died and go back to Russia.
I heard an interview with some Sri Lankans who were rescued by Ukraine a few days ago. It was heartrending.
Same people, I think.

Concentration camps and slavery in the 21st century.
Sadly neither thing has ever gone away, their use definitely gives the lie to any country claiming to be civilised
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bob sterman » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:03 pm

Latest rant from Putin - looks like his main priority after the illegal annexation of those regions is to win over gender critical feminists...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... h-ukraine/

https://www.reuters.com/world/extracts- ... 022-09-30/

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Herainestold » Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:58 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:03 pm
Latest rant from Putin - looks like his main priority after the illegal annexation of those regions is to win over gender critical feminists...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... h-ukraine/

https://www.reuters.com/world/extracts- ... 022-09-30/
Putin is right about the West. Still it is Pot and Kettle stuff. Putin emulates the West by doing the same thing to Ukraine.
and now we are headed to "limited" nuclear war in Europe.
NATO and Zelensky won't come to the table, Putin won't back down.

It will be a miserable winter in Europe and the UK, no matter which option prevails.
Masking forever
Putin is a monster.
Russian socialism will rise again

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