The Invasion of Ukraine

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shpalman
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by shpalman » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:58 am

I mean, Russia is trying to blame Britain for "provoking" the Ukraine into defending itself from the Russian invasion.

The only c.nts who provoked Ukraine into anything are the Russian c.nts and if they'd just c.nt back off to cuntland there'd be no more attacks on the bits of Russia near to Ukraine which are supporting the Russian c.nts who are killing and raping civilians in another country in the name of "liberating" them.

The 25th of April is a national holiday in Italy to celebrate the Americans getting Italy out of the sh.t it got itself into thanks to some fascist c.nt deciding to support some nazi c.nt. Predictably there were morons out protesting about the prime minister and NATO and some sh.t like that (the spiritual descendents of the partisans who caught and executed Mussolini when he was fleeing like a coward would be the tankies who think we shouldn't be helping Ukraine not surrender to Putin). I decided to read [small]wikipedia[/small] about exactly what happened regarding Italy losing WW2 twice, turns out Italy had to join late because it wasn't ready, overstretched itself, and stopped being so keen on it once they started losing.
The Allied invasion of Sicily brought the war to the nation's very doorstep. The Italian home front was also in bad shape as the Allied bombings were taking their toll. Factories all over Italy were brought to a virtual standstill because raw materials, such as coal and oil, were lacking. Additionally, there was a chronic shortage of food, and what food was available was being sold at nearly confiscatory prices. Mussolini's once-ubiquitous propaganda machine lost its grip on the people; a large number of Italians turned to Vatican Radio or Radio London for more accurate news coverage. Discontent came to a head in March 1943 with a wave of labor strikes in the industrial north—the first large-scale strikes since 1925. Also in March, some of the major factories in Milan and Turin stopped production to secure evacuation allowances for workers' families. The German presence in Italy had sharply turned public opinion against Mussolini; for example, when the Allies invaded Sicily, the majority of the public there welcomed them as liberators.
molto tricky

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Martin Y » Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:47 am

shpalman wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:58 am
... The German presence in Italy had sharply turned public opinion against Mussolini; for example, when the Allies invaded Sicily, the majority of the public there welcomed them as liberators.
It is actually possible for an invading army to be welcomed as liberators. Sometimes.

Finding that this is the case must be a very welcome surprise. Announcing that "we will indeed be welcomed as liberators" is setting yourself up for something different. Dick Cheney believed his own rose-coloured hype, and it appears that, based perhaps on the glossiest presentation of what happened in Crimea, Putin did too.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:50 am

Russian ships reportedly visible from Odesa, where Russia has attacked a key bridge. Not clear how bad the damage is, but if the bridge is destroyed, westernmost part of Odesa oblast is cut off from rest of Ukraine by land. Could be linked to Transnistria noises. Are Russians stupid enough to attack within the envelope of Odesa's air and coastal defences, to access land that cannot easily be resupplied and can easily be shelled?

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Allo V Psycho » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:22 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:50 am
Russian ships reportedly visible from Odesa, where Russia has attacked a key bridge. Not clear how bad the damage is, but if the bridge is destroyed, westernmost part of Odesa oblast is cut off from rest of Ukraine by land. Could be linked to Transnistria noises. Are Russians stupid enough to attack within the envelope of Odesa's air and coastal defences, to access land that cannot easily be resupplied and can easily be shelled?
Covert Shores seems to reckon it is a false alarm.
Seeing credible reports that the vessels observed off #Odesa today are the tanker Millennium Spirit which was attacked earlier in the war. Also two unattended barges which were drifting.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:24 pm

Allo V Psycho wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:22 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:50 am
Russian ships reportedly visible from Odesa, where Russia has attacked a key bridge. Not clear how bad the damage is, but if the bridge is destroyed, westernmost part of Odesa oblast is cut off from rest of Ukraine by land. Could be linked to Transnistria noises. Are Russians stupid enough to attack within the envelope of Odesa's air and coastal defences, to access land that cannot easily be resupplied and can easily be shelled?
Covert Shores seems to reckon it is a false alarm.
Seeing credible reports that the vessels observed off #Odesa today are the tanker Millennium Spirit which was attacked earlier in the war. Also two unattended barges which were drifting.
Probably is, then. Covert Shores is pretty good at this.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Herainestold » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:50 pm

The Graun..
The fact is, day by day, more towns and cities are destroyed and then fall to the Russians. In two months, the area under Russian control – originally just the breakaway parts of Donbas – has grown to perhaps five times the size. If Russia continues to suffer “defeats” at this pace, then in another two months the entire south of Ukraine will be in ruins, cities such as Odesa will resemble Mariupol, and thousands upon thousands more Ukrainians will have died.
To get Putin to the negotiating table at all, everything would have to be up for discussion – including Ukraine’s borders, Russia’s age-old security concerns, perhaps even the very logic of basing today’s international frontiers in that part of Europe on what were internal borders in the USSR, drawn up by communist leaders precisely to prevent Soviet republics and regions from being viable independent states. The outcome of the talks does not need to be predetermined. The important thing is to talk rather than fight.

Western leaders cannot bring themselves to broach these matters, which would seem to reward Putin for attempting to redraw the map by force. They would rather fight – or more accurately, let Ukraine fight, in the hope of defeating Russia. But if one thing is certain it is that Putin will never accept defeat. He is already too deeply invested in this war to back off with nothing to show for it. If western leaders think that their arms-length encouragement of Ukraine will bring about a Ukrainian military victory, then they are fatally misreading Putin’s intentions and resolve. For Ukraine’s sake, we need to stop him now, one way or the other, before nothing is left of the country we want to protect.
Some rare sense from the Western press.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... 1651068194
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:57 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:50 pm
The Graun..
The fact is, day by day, more towns and cities are destroyed and then fall to the Russians. In two months, the area under Russian control – originally just the breakaway parts of Donbas – has grown to perhaps five times the size. If Russia continues to suffer “defeats” at this pace, then in another two months the entire south of Ukraine will be in ruins, cities such as Odesa will resemble Mariupol, and thousands upon thousands more Ukrainians will have died.
To get Putin to the negotiating table at all, everything would have to be up for discussion – including Ukraine’s borders, Russia’s age-old security concerns, perhaps even the very logic of basing today’s international frontiers in that part of Europe on what were internal borders in the USSR, drawn up by communist leaders precisely to prevent Soviet republics and regions from being viable independent states. The outcome of the talks does not need to be predetermined. The important thing is to talk rather than fight.

Western leaders cannot bring themselves to broach these matters, which would seem to reward Putin for attempting to redraw the map by force. They would rather fight – or more accurately, let Ukraine fight, in the hope of defeating Russia. But if one thing is certain it is that Putin will never accept defeat. He is already too deeply invested in this war to back off with nothing to show for it. If western leaders think that their arms-length encouragement of Ukraine will bring about a Ukrainian military victory, then they are fatally misreading Putin’s intentions and resolve. For Ukraine’s sake, we need to stop him now, one way or the other, before nothing is left of the country we want to protect.
Some rare sense from the Western press.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... 1651068194
Literally written at the bottom of the article this imbecile chose to quote wrote:Angus Roxburgh is a former BBC Moscow correspondent and consultant to the Kremlin.
For context, you blithering idiot.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Ben B » Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:22 pm

Putin won't back down, so we should make Ukraine back down, is a hell of a take
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Herainestold » Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:31 pm

Ben B wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:22 pm
Putin won't back down, so we should make Ukraine back down, is a hell of a take
It depends on the consequences, doesn't it?

After the euphoria of the Kyiv retreat, Russian now has the upper hand. Ukraine is being slowly and relentlessly destroyed.
If we cared about the Ukrainian people, we would try and stop the destruction.

And most of us don 't want to be nuked.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:50 pm

shpalman wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:58 am
The 25th of April is a national holiday in Italy to celebrate the Americans getting Italy out of the sh.t it got itself into thanks to some fascist c.nt deciding to support some nazi c.nt. Predictably there were morons out protesting about the prime minister and NATO and some sh.t like that (the spiritual descendents of the partisans who caught and executed Mussolini when he was fleeing like a coward would be the tankies who think we shouldn't be helping Ukraine not surrender to Putin).
Yeah by strange coincidence it's also a holiday here, marking the Carnation Revolution when the Portuguese people bloodlessly overthrew their fascist dictator in 1974. (Here's some bkgrd https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution)

The Portuguese Communist Party was instrumental in bringing that about, and unlike certain other communist revolutionaries they did actually hold the promised elections a year later, and when they didn't win they just kept on trying to get votes rather than purging and killing etc.

They don't win many seats these days (though my burnt-out post-industrial hometown is a hotspot), but I'm generally glad they're present in public debates because they bring a useful perspective. They're quite good on environmental issues, for instance.

It's really boiling my piss to see so many of them backing the Kremlin line on this. f.cking idiot dinosaurs. Luckily there are other, better, far-left parties here, but ffs get a clue dipshits. Plenty of similarities between Salazar and Putin.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:01 pm

Like, here's a more sensibly nuanced leftist take (from Bloco da Esquerda):
In the same session, BE MEP Marisa Matias defended that "the European Union can play an important role in the peace process" and help to mediate the conflict, welcoming that "it has finally taken a correct position on refugees", which must be extended to everyone.



"A refugee is a refugee, wherever he comes from, and deserves to be welcomed with the dignity that we demand for anyone. Here is the left of solidarity with people who need it", corroborated BE coordinator Catarina Martins, who this public session, which took place in a school in Lisbon.



In her intervention, the leader of the Bloco once again underlined the party's position in this conflict.



"The Bloc condemned this war with the same conviction with which it condemned all the wars of our century - from Iraq to Syria, passing through the former Yugoslavia. We do it because we know that there is no historical context that justifies the aggression of a people, who there is no territorial dispute that justifies the bombing of a maternity hospital or a school, with the certainty that there is no military difficulty that justifies the war against civilians. This left rises against war, yes, and at all times", he said.



Catarina Martins, like Luís Fazenda, praised the role of all Russians who oppose the regime of President Vladimir Putin and, on the issue of armaments, accused the European elites of "cynicism and irresponsibility".



"In the last 24 days, we have heard words of just condemnation from the French and German, Italian and Austrian, Bulgarian, Czech, Croatian, Finnish, Slovak and Spanish heads of government who have rightly condemned the war, but they all lead countries that, in recent years, , sold weapons to Russia", he criticized.
From Google translate of this https://www.jornaldenegocios.pt/economi ... mba-da-paz
(Portuguese does some weird #secondmentions-type stuff for verbs about speech. People are always afirming and attesting and opining.)

TLDR guess wat you can be against Putin without being a 100% NATO fanboi
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Herainestold » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:56 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:01 pm
Like, here's a more sensibly nuanced leftist take (from Bloco da Esquerda):
In the same session, BE MEP Marisa Matias defended that "the European Union can play an important role in the peace process" and help to mediate the conflict, welcoming that "it has finally taken a correct position on refugees", which must be extended to everyone.



"A refugee is a refugee, wherever he comes from, and deserves to be welcomed with the dignity that we demand for anyone. Here is the left of solidarity with people who need it", corroborated BE coordinator Catarina Martins, who this public session, which took place in a school in Lisbon.



In her intervention, the leader of the Bloco once again underlined the party's position in this conflict.



"The Bloc condemned this war with the same conviction with which it condemned all the wars of our century - from Iraq to Syria, passing through the former Yugoslavia. We do it because we know that there is no historical context that justifies the aggression of a people, who there is no territorial dispute that justifies the bombing of a maternity hospital or a school, with the certainty that there is no military difficulty that justifies the war against civilians. This left rises against war, yes, and at all times", he said.



Catarina Martins, like Luís Fazenda, praised the role of all Russians who oppose the regime of President Vladimir Putin and, on the issue of armaments, accused the European elites of "cynicism and irresponsibility".



"In the last 24 days, we have heard words of just condemnation from the French and German, Italian and Austrian, Bulgarian, Czech, Croatian, Finnish, Slovak and Spanish heads of government who have rightly condemned the war, but they all lead countries that, in recent years, , sold weapons to Russia", he criticized.
From Google translate of this https://www.jornaldenegocios.pt/economi ... mba-da-paz
(Portuguese does some weird #secondmentions-type stuff for verbs about speech. People are always afirming and attesting and opining.)

TLDR guess wat you can be against Putin without being a 100% NATO fanboi
What is their position on arming Ukraine, escalating hostilities, peace talks?
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:43 am

Concerning thread on signs that Putin may try to escalate by declaring the ‘special military operation’ a war and so mobilising the population and industry: https://twitter.com/mmazarr/status/1519 ... T4SUX060kw

Nato would be the enemy as well as Ukraine. Though it’s unclear how far that could be taken.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:56 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:43 am
Concerning thread on signs that Putin may try to escalate by declaring the ‘special military operation’ a war and so mobilising the population and industry: https://twitter.com/mmazarr/status/1519 ... T4SUX060kw

Nato would be the enemy as well as Ukraine. Though it’s unclear how far that could be taken.
It's a complicated one, because mobilisation comes with pretty big risks for Putin too - Russia's military relies on poor, minority ethnic men from deprived areas of rural Russia. Conscripting Muscovites might well lead to unrest.

The concerning thing I've seen is a lot of Russian media now asking why they aren't fighting with full effort and why they are holding back, when in fact they are fighting with full effort, they just don't seem to realise they are.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bob sterman » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:05 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:56 am
The concerning thing I've seen is a lot of Russian media now asking why they aren't fighting with full effort and why they are holding back, when in fact they are fighting with full effort, they just don't seem to realise they are.
This idea they are pushing, that Russia is not fighting with full effort while NATO is fighting "all out" is bizarre. It's creeping into Monty Python Black Knight territory.

With US offensive operations largely confined to Chad in Texas, Brad in Arkansas and Todd in Ohio sat in Starbucks posting tweets while sipping smoothies.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:42 am

bob sterman wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:05 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:56 am
The concerning thing I've seen is a lot of Russian media now asking why they aren't fighting with full effort and why they are holding back, when in fact they are fighting with full effort, they just don't seem to realise they are.
This idea they are pushing, that Russia is not fighting with full effort while NATO is fighting "all out" is bizarre. It's creeping into Monty Python Black Knight territory.
They've internalized the propaganda about Russia being far more powerful than it is.

This is a problem for Putin because he'll be blamed for a failure to go all in.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:48 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:56 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:43 am
Concerning thread on signs that Putin may try to escalate by declaring the ‘special military operation’ a war and so mobilising the population and industry: https://twitter.com/mmazarr/status/1519 ... T4SUX060kw

Nato would be the enemy as well as Ukraine. Though it’s unclear how far that could be taken.
It's a complicated one, because mobilisation comes with pretty big risks for Putin too - Russia's military relies on poor, minority ethnic men from deprived areas of rural Russia. Conscripting Muscovites might well lead to unrest.
Those risks can be reduced. They don't need to conscript millions of men in order to carry on fighting in Ukraine. As with the US in Vietnam, they could avoid political problems by not conscripting everyone and by offering deferments for people who aren't otherwise poor and marginalized (eg for Rhodes scholars and rich kids with bone spurs or who are members of the Air National Guard).

A mobilization could start with reserves being called up, and with exceptions for people with certain jobs or in university. But I assume that would need official recognition of a war actually being fought.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:54 am

My concern about Russian mobilization isn't that they could create a massive well trained and well equipped army in a few months that could invade Poland and drive for Berlin. But that they could in the near term sustain fighting in Ukraine indefinitely (but at lower intensity than in March 2022). Over then long term they would still be able to threaten Finland and the Baltic states.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by lpm » Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:02 am

Russia's population is 3x that of Ukraine.

Ukraine has fully conscripted already.

So to McNamara it, Ukraine needs to kill attackers/occupiers at 3 to 1.

Which Ukraine can achieve during the initial hot phase of invading Kyiv etc, but not during long dreary months of Russia forces entrenched in the Donbas?

But in armaments Ukraine can be endlessly resupplied from the west. How does Russia resupply long term? They can't sustain conscription and war production over the years. They've f.cked it. They can't threaten Finland and the Balts. To McNamara again, Nato is 6x the population of Russia and the body count spreadsheet of Russian conscripts would get full fast.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:28 am

lpm wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:02 am
Russia's population is 3x that of Ukraine.

Ukraine has fully conscripted already.

So to McNamara it, Ukraine needs to kill attackers/occupiers at 3 to 1.

Which Ukraine can achieve during the initial hot phase of invading Kyiv etc, but not during long dreary months of Russia forces entrenched in the Donbas?
Exactly. In general defenders have an advantage over attackers. If Ukraine is to retake the territory it has lost then it'll face some of the disadvantages that have affected Russia. It'll likely lose more than Russia.

If Russia can keep replenishing losses than the war in the Donbas and southern Ukraine could carry on indefinitely. That would harm Ukraine far more than Russia as its Ukrainian land and cities that are devastated.
lpm wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:02 am
But in armaments Ukraine can be endlessly resupplied from the west. How does Russia resupply long term? They can't sustain conscription and war production over the years. They've f.cked it. They can't threaten Finland and the Balts. To McNamara again, Nato is 6x the population of Russia and the body count spreadsheet of Russian conscripts would get full fast.
Ukraine can't at he moment be resupplied endlessly. The west is already running out of stocks of weapons that have been donated. It lacks the industrial capacity to rapidly make new weapons at the rate they are being expended.

Russia has tens of thousands of armored vehicles and artillery in storage. Certainly they are likely to be in poor condition and lack modern technology. But given time they could be made to be serviceable.

As for the McNamara calculations, yes NATO has more people and could outproduce Russia. But how much would NATO populations be willing to sacrifice in order to save Ukraine? Would you be willing to see cuts in UK government spending in healthcare or de-carbonization in order to pay for billions of pounds worth of new weapons to be sent to Kyiv?

As for an attack on the Baltic states or Finland, I assume that Russia would lose. But probably at a terrible cost. The Centre of Vilnius is only 30km from the border with Belarus. Russia could do to it what they did to Kharkiv.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bob sterman » Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:02 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:28 am
Russia has tens of thousands of armored vehicles and artillery in storage. Certainly they are likely to be in poor condition and lack modern technology. But given time they could be made to be serviceable.
Hmmm...

Corruption hinders Russia's attempts to replace losses with old vehicles - Ukraine
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-702428
Russia is attempting to restore old military equipment held in long-term storage to replace losses suffered during its invasion of Ukraine but it is encountering difficulty in doing so because of corruption and the poor condition of the equipment, the Ukrainian Intelligence Directorate (GUR) said on Saturday.

Military gear is being removed from long-term storage facilities and is being channeled to a repair and rehabilitation base near the Belarus and Ukraine border, GUR asserted, but in cases such as the Russian 4th Tank Division, the conditions of vehicles are such that only one-in-ten "mothballed" units is in working order.

"Optical devices and electronics containing precious metals were stolen from the combat vehicles," said GUR. The intelligence body reported that many of the 4th Tank Division's stored tanks were "completely dismantled," and that some did not have engines.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:20 pm

Maybe time to revise my previous view. Biden just requested $30 billion for military aid for Ukraine. That’s enough to supply a lot of equipment.

By way of comparison Ukraine’s 2021 military expenditure was about $6 billion, and for another country Israel’s was $24 billion.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/2 ... n-00028552

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Martin Y » Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:40 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:50 pm
The Graun..
... Western leaders cannot bring themselves to broach these matters, which would seem to reward Putin ...
Ukraine will broach whichever concessions it chooses to with the Russians. Western leaders aren't negotiating with Russia on Ukraine's behalf.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:58 am

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:40 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:50 pm
The Graun..
... Western leaders cannot bring themselves to broach these matters, which would seem to reward Putin ...
Ukraine will broach whichever concessions it chooses to with the Russians. Western leaders aren't negotiating with Russia on Ukraine's behalf.
The fundamental flaw in all Putinist arguments, such as the one Herainestold linked, is that they just cannot understand that Ukraine is an independent state, and this limits and poisons their thinking. They analyse this as though the leadership is in the west, and Ukraine is being pushed to fight Russia.

The simple truth of the matter is that Ukraine will fight for Ukraine's reasons; the support provided by the west makes that a much more winnable fight, but even without it, Ukraine would fight. Right now, Ukrainian recruiters are turning people away because they can't accomodate everyone who is willing to fight. People are trying to bribe their way into the army. This isn't because the west wants them to fight, it is because their homeland has been invaded, their culture marked for destruction by a genocidal aggressor.

But the Putinists can't even comprehend the idea of a smaller country having agency and ideas of its own, so they assume it must be coming from Washington and London.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Herainestold » Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:16 pm

Imrael wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:14 am
I remember a lot of similar speculation about Trumps health at certain points. Slightly dark wishful thinking I suspect. (And remember that Hitler in declining health didnt get notably less dangerous)
So far the list has included thyroid cancer, bowel cancer, pancreatic cancer, spinal cord cancer, a brain tumour, Parkinson’s disease, dementia, steroid misuse, psychosis and a personality disorder. With all these ailments, it’s a small wonder that Putin has managed to keep hold of the Presidency of Russia.

Of course, at 69-years-old, things are likely to starting to catch up with the Russian President in some way or another. But the truth is that very few people in the West (or even Russia) know about Putin’s physical or mental state, and the endless speculation only creates more confusion.

To try to rationalise Putin’s actions in Ukraine by blaming it on disease is desperate. Perhaps his barbarism is not due to Parkinson’s or cancer, but simply a result of him being foolhardy and arrogant. Poor decision making does not require a medical diagnosis.
https://unherd.com/thepost/does-vladimi ... -dementia/
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