The Invasion of Ukraine
- Woodchopper
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
I'm a bit skeptical about that plan. As mentioned in the article it would take a policy change by Turkey, which hasn't exactly been very cooperative.
Also, it might not help that much. Much of Ukraine's pre-war port capacity is under Russian occupation or has been destroyed (eg Kherson, Mariupol). That does leave Odesa etc, but the port infrastructure and railway lines leading from agricultural areas are vulnerable to Russian air attack (by missiles or aircraft).
Also, it might not help that much. Much of Ukraine's pre-war port capacity is under Russian occupation or has been destroyed (eg Kherson, Mariupol). That does leave Odesa etc, but the port infrastructure and railway lines leading from agricultural areas are vulnerable to Russian air attack (by missiles or aircraft).
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
It sounds like a non-starter to me. Persuading Turkey to open the Bosporus to warships is almost the least of the problems, compared to what you might expect them to do in the Black Sea other than start a wider war and get sunk by air or missile attack.
I can imagine a slight chance that a nation like Egypt which has historical friendly relations with Russia might manage to negotiate safe passage for grain carriers if Russia is persuaded that allowing humanitarian food shipments out would be good PR.
I can imagine a slight chance that a nation like Egypt which has historical friendly relations with Russia might manage to negotiate safe passage for grain carriers if Russia is persuaded that allowing humanitarian food shipments out would be good PR.
- Woodchopper
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Maybe, though I suspect that Russia may see food shipments as a form of leverage to be used to get the rest of the world to accept a deal (eg if Russia were to annex the areas it currently controls and offer to allow wheat exports to those states that recognize the annexation).
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Webinar on Environmental dimensions of the conflict in Ukraine. I think it's free to non-members.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/statu ... EpFAHEYPngPutin has signed a decree which opens the way for issuing Russian passports to people in the occupied parts of Kherson and Zaporizhya regions.
Which is a step toward annexing the territory.
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Pretty much a direct consequence of the invasion of Ukraine is the announcement today of the cancellation of the Finnish MotoGP. The track facilities aren’t finished yet, it’s more difficult getting materials into Finland currently, and a large number of attendees were expected to be Russian. Effectively it was a way of having a Russian MotoGP without holding it in Russia.
where once I used to scintillate
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- EACLucifer
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Reportedly Putin's pledged not to use the removal of Ukrainian minefields - something that would have to occur for grain exports from Odesa - to attack.
It would be an awful lot more convincing if they hadn't used the clearing of mined roads round Mariupol for evacuation of civilians as an opportunity to attack.
It would be an awful lot more convincing if they hadn't used the clearing of mined roads round Mariupol for evacuation of civilians as an opportunity to attack.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Thread on the role of Twitter which rings true: https://twitter.com/tobiaschneider/stat ... JypiX_y-lQ
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
f.ck Orban.
- Bird on a Fire
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
I notice that the pipeline in question goes through Ukraine. It would be an awful shame if something were to happen to it. Cant imagine the Ukrainians are too pleased about a Russian money pump flowing through their territory.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Can't imagine they would like to have millions of gallons of oil flowing onto their land & bespoiling it eitherBird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 7:40 amI notice that the pipeline in question goes through Ukraine. It would be an awful shame if something were to happen to it. Cant imagine the Ukrainians are too pleased about a Russian money pump flowing through their territory.
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Pipelines do have valves etc. on them.tom p wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 8:52 amCan't imagine they would like to have millions of gallons of oil flowing onto their land & bespoiling it eitherBird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 7:40 amI notice that the pipeline in question goes through Ukraine. It would be an awful shame if something were to happen to it. Cant imagine the Ukrainians are too pleased about a Russian money pump flowing through their territory.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Yeah I was thinking something a bit more sophisticated than blowing it up, but I'm not an engineer.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Aye, but if you can access the valve & close it, what happens? Pressure builds up along the pipe & are you certain there's not a weak spot somewhere along the Ukranian stretch?dyqik wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 11:18 amPipelines do have valves etc. on them.tom p wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 8:52 amCan't imagine they would like to have millions of gallons of oil flowing onto their land & bespoiling it eitherBird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 7:40 am
I notice that the pipeline in question goes through Ukraine. It would be an awful shame if something were to happen to it. Cant imagine the Ukrainians are too pleased about a Russian money pump flowing through their territory.
- El Pollo Diablo
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
I guess if you can access all the valves on your stretch, you can prevent the pressure build up sufficiently to prevent a spill there.
If truth is many-sided, mendacity is many-tongued
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
And the pumping systems have pressure shutoffs, to prevent that ever happening.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 1:35 pmI guess if you can access all the valves on your stretch, you can prevent the pressure build up sufficiently to prevent a spill there.
In any case, it's likely that the static maximum pressure limit of the pumps is lower than the burst pressure of the pipeline.
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
That should be the case if built to any kind of standards.dyqik wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 2:45 pmAnd the pumping systems have pressure shutoffs, to prevent that ever happening.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 1:35 pmI guess if you can access all the valves on your stretch, you can prevent the pressure build up sufficiently to prevent a spill there.
In any case, it's likely that the static maximum pressure limit of the pumps is lower than the burst pressure of the pipeline.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
now I sin till ten past three
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
And maintained...Grumble wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 3:11 pmThat should be the case if built to any kind of standards.dyqik wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 2:45 pmAnd the pumping systems have pressure shutoffs, to prevent that ever happening.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 1:35 pmI guess if you can access all the valves on your stretch, you can prevent the pressure build up sufficiently to prevent a spill there.
In any case, it's likely that the static maximum pressure limit of the pumps is lower than the burst pressure of the pipeline.
Which probably puts the highest risk portions in Russia.
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
I think I posted this video earlier, which is in Finnish but with English subtitles.
Very interesting. From 2018, a lecture by a retired Finnish intelligence colonel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw&t=1600s
Very interesting. From 2018, a lecture by a retired Finnish intelligence colonel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw&t=1600s
Seems entirely accurate for discussing how Russia has reacted to ramping up support for Ukraine and indeed the other provocations by Russia until getting some pushbackLenin once said 'try it with a bayonet, if it's soft, push, if it's hard, leave'
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
How does it work?
I'm no engineer, so I'd be keen to understand.
Are such pipes usually full, or might there usually be less oil than the pipe can manage? Does the buildup of pressure get immediately informed to the pumphouse? If so, how? I know this isn't your area of expertise, but you (and others) clearly know far more than me
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Oil pipelines, if running at below 100% capacity, don't run with oil and vapour, they are generally still oil-filled just with a lower velocity. Vapour may form if the pressure reduces such that some oil evaporates, but that would be an unusual thing to do in a processed oil pipeline as two-phase flow is so much more difficult to deal with than single-phase flow.tom p wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:37 amHow does it work?
I'm no engineer, so I'd be keen to understand.
Are such pipes usually full, or might there usually be less oil than the pipe can manage? Does the buildup of pressure get immediately informed to the pumphouse? If so, how? I know this isn't your area of expertise, but you (and others) clearly know far more than me
So the pipeline will be liquid-filled and if you close a valve in the pipeline* the pressure will start building up at the pumphouse pretty quickly. The pressure wave gets communicated at the speed of sound, and while that's slower in oil than in water, it's still ~1400 m/s (~5000 km/h) so the pump will pretty quickly know that there's a blockage.
The pump discharge pressure then starts increasing, making the pump have to work harder to pump each molecule into the pipeline. Eventually, the pressure will reach a point where the pump can't push more liquid into the pipeline. Before this happens, there should be instruments and safety valves to relieve the pressure, but the ultimate safety measure (usually) is that the pipeline can take more pressure than the pump can ever deliver.
Now there can be weak spots due to poor quality pipe or welding, or people can sabotage the pipeline to create weak spots, but otherwise it's very difficult to burst a pipe due to pump pressure alone.
* Any valves tend to be out of the way, behind fences, underground, or otherwise not in locations where just anybody can access them to open/close them.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
And this is usually backed up by a safety margin. There’s a design pressure but to be certified to meet that it will have to be tested to at least 1.5x the design pressure (different standards vary)
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
now I sin till ten past three
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
There are also multiple pumping stations (20 total among the several branches) along this line, which is operated within Ukraine by a Ukrainian company. If there's a pumping station in Ukraine, then that can be shut down. There will be shutoff isolation valve locations at multiple points to respond to a break in the line or to isolate sections for maintenance.Martin_B wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:39 amOil pipelines, if running at below 100% capacity, don't run with oil and vapour, they are generally still oil-filled just with a lower velocity. Vapour may form if the pressure reduces such that some oil evaporates, but that would be an unusual thing to do in a processed oil pipeline as two-phase flow is so much more difficult to deal with than single-phase flow.tom p wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:37 amHow does it work?
I'm no engineer, so I'd be keen to understand.
Are such pipes usually full, or might there usually be less oil than the pipe can manage? Does the buildup of pressure get immediately informed to the pumphouse? If so, how? I know this isn't your area of expertise, but you (and others) clearly know far more than me
So the pipeline will be liquid-filled and if you close a valve in the pipeline* the pressure will start building up at the pumphouse pretty quickly. The pressure wave gets communicated at the speed of sound, and while that's slower in oil than in water, it's still ~1400 m/s (~5000 km/h) so the pump will pretty quickly know that there's a blockage.
The pump discharge pressure then starts increasing, making the pump have to work harder to pump each molecule into the pipeline. Eventually, the pressure will reach a point where the pump can't push more liquid into the pipeline. Before this happens, there should be instruments and safety valves to relieve the pressure, but the ultimate safety measure (usually) is that the pipeline can take more pressure than the pump can ever deliver.
Now there can be weak spots due to poor quality pipe or welding, or people can sabotage the pipeline to create weak spots, but otherwise it's very difficult to burst a pipe due to pump pressure alone.
* Any valves tend to be out of the way, behind fences, underground, or otherwise not in locations where just anybody can access them to open/close them.
There's also a branch point in Western Ukraine that can choose how much oil goes to Germany via Slovakia, or to Hungary. Just redirecting oil would be enough for the pipeline to get shut down by Russia.
Re: The Invasion of Ukraine
Fascinating, thanks guys