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Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:21 pm
by nekomatic
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:08 pm
I've had that comment from a couple of low tax/tory types before when I've mentioned that I'd be happy to pay more tax, and it's such a stupidly disingenuous argument that it doesn't deserve the time of day.
I think the best version I ever encountered was ‘if you’re a socialist, how come you have more than one pair of trousers?’
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:23 pm
by Gfamily
nekomatic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:21 pm
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:08 pm
I've had that comment from a couple of low tax/tory types before when I've mentioned that I'd be happy to pay more tax, and it's such a stupidly disingenuous argument that it doesn't deserve the time of day.
I think the best version I ever encountered was ‘if you’re a socialist, how come you have more than one pair of trousers?’
Is that a variant of "..from each according to his tweeds"?
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:26 pm
by discovolante
nekomatic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:21 pm
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:08 pm
I've had that comment from a couple of low tax/tory types before when I've mentioned that I'd be happy to pay more tax, and it's such a stupidly disingenuous argument that it doesn't deserve the time of day.
I think the best version I ever encountered was ‘if you’re a socialist, how come you have more than one pair of trousers?’
Is that some obscure reference to The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists?
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:28 pm
by Little waster
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:23 pm
nekomatic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:21 pm
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:08 pm
I've had that comment from a couple of low tax/tory types before when I've mentioned that I'd be happy to pay more tax, and it's such a stupidly disingenuous argument that it doesn't deserve the time of day.
I think the best version I ever encountered was ‘if you’re a socialist, how come you have more than one pair of trousers?’
Is that a variant of "..from each according to his tweeds"?
Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chinos!
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:36 pm
by Gfamily
Little waster wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:28 pm
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:23 pm
nekomatic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:21 pm
I think the best version I ever encountered was ‘if you’re a socialist, how come you have more than one pair of trousers?’
Is that a variant of "..from each according to his tweeds"?
Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chinos!
QFTrews
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:36 pm
by Bird on a Fire
When we have fully automated luxury communism I'm never wearing trousers again.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:51 pm
by monkey
"As things stand today capitalist civilization cannot continue; we must either move forward into socialism or fall back into trousers." - Rosa Luxemburg.
ETA: I copied and pasted the wrong quote. That one was Karl Kautsky, who Rosa thought was Engles, when she said "Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to Socialism or regression into trousers."
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:11 pm
by Bird on a Fire
It's not really socialism, but I always enjoyed this moment in Beckett's
Endgame:
Nagg: Let me tell it again.
(Raconteur's voice.)
An Englishman, needing a pair of striped trousers in a hurry for the New Year festivities, goes to his tailor who takes his measurements.
(Tailor's voice.)
"That's the lot, come back in four days, I'll have it ready." Good. Four days later.
(Tailor's voice.)
"So sorry, come back in a week, I've made a mess of the seat." Good, that's all right, a neat seat can be very ticklish. A week later.
(Tailor's voice.)
"Frightfully sorry, come back in ten days, I've made a hash of the crotch." Good, can't be helped, a snug crotch is always a teaser. Ten days later.
(Tailor's voice.)
"Dreadfully sorry, come back in a fortnight, I've made a balls of the fly." Good, at a pinch, a smart fly is a stiff proposition.
(Pause. Normal voice.)
I never told it worse.
(Pause. Gloomy.)
I tell this story worse and worse.
(Pause. Raconteur's voice.)
Well, to make it short, the bluebells are blowing and he ballockses the buttonholes.
(Customer's voice.)
"God damn you to hell, Sir, no, it's indecent, there are limits! In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. Yes Sir, no less Sir, the WORLD! And you are not bl..dy well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months!"
(Tailor's voice, scandalized.)
"But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look--
(disdainful gesture, disgustedly)
--at the world--
(pause)
and look--
(loving gesture, proudly)
--at my TROUSERS!"
(Pause. He looks at Nell who has remained impassive, her eyes unseeing, breaks into a high forced laugh, cuts it short, pokes his head towards Nell, launches his laugh again.)
Clov: Well? Don't we laugh?
Hamm (after reflection): I don't.
Clov (after reflection): Nor I.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:12 pm
by Bird on a Fire
monkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:51 pm
"As things stand today capitalist civilization cannot continue; we must either move forward into socialism or fall back into trousers." - Rosa Luxemburg.
ETA: I copied and pasted the wrong quote. That one was Karl Kautsky, who Rosa thought was Engles, when she said "Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to Socialism or regression into trousers."
It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of trousers.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:39 pm
by sTeamTraen
discovolante wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:08 pm
Given that it would be almost entirely pointless in that the additional amount you as an individual would pay amounts to a bit of spare change behind the sofa as far as the treasury is concerned (no offence, obviously I don't know how much you earn), no I don't think it would be hypocritical. I've had that comment from a couple of low tax/tory types before when I've mentioned that I'd be happy to pay more tax, and it's such a stupidly disingenuous argument that it doesn't deserve the time of day.
True; "I wouldn't mind paying a bit more tax" generally means "I wouldn't mind it if I and everyone else paid a bit more tax".
That said, one can simulate paying more tax by putting, say, an extra 2p in the pound's worth of income tax in a separate account and giving it to charity at the end of the year. That also has the advantage that if the desired tax rise does come about, you won't miss the money.
(There is, of course, the "moral hazard" argument that by giving to charity you are doing what the government should be doing, but I would suggest that this is just the mirror image of the "I didn't mean that only
I should pay more tax" discussion.)
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:25 pm
by Iron Magpie
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:22 pm
Well, with prompt timing, some Labour MPs are insisting that if Christian Wakeford is allowed into the Labour party, someone called Jeremy Corbyn should be as well. I'm sure I remember something about him and being friend with people who hate Jews, but maybe I dreamt that. If not, I guess all that is cleared up now.
It does say something about the new new labour of Starmer that he will accept an outright tory, that has always been a tory yet will not reinstate JC who has always been labour and is a previous leader. I don't know about you but to me that says that Starmers labour is Lino. Which is pretty sh.t for everyone.
We have returned to Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. So much for choice eh? I think everyone should take every opportunity to introduce him everywhere as The Staunch Socialist, Comrade Christian Wakeford. He is such an ingrained tory his head will probably splode before too long and save everyone a lot of bother over not very much.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
Corbyn knows what he has to do to he readmitted into the party. The fact that he refuses to do so says a lot about him.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:56 pm
by monkey
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 pm
Corbyn knows what he has to do to he readmitted into the party. The fact that he refuses to do so says a lot about him.
[pedant]Parliamentary Labour Party, he is still a Labour member.[/pedant]
But yes, he should have just eaten some humble pie. I have no idea why he hasn't, apart from him being proper stubborn, I can't see any advantage for him drawing out the situation this long. His presence in the halfway house is doing nothing to unite the wings of the party (and Labour need that). Best thing now would be for him just to retire at the next election (he'll be 75 for that, very reasonable thing to do), but announce it toot sweet so they can get on with selecting his replacement without all the fuss. I'm not sure he will though.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:03 pm
by Bird on a Fire
Yeah it's not complicated. Demonising refugees is fine, but being friends with people who demonise Jews is bad. Nobody who remembers New Labour should be too surprised. It's called electability, hun.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:27 pm
by WFJ
Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:03 pm
Yeah it's not complicated. Demonising refugees is fine, but being friends with people who demonise Jews is bad. Nobody who remembers New Labour should be too surprised. It's called electability, hun.
Yes imagine being elected and governing with the most progressively transformative domestic policies the country's seen outside the Attlee and the Campbell-Bannerman/Asquith governments. You wouldn't have caught Jeremy lowering himself that level.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:03 am
by Millennie Al
Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:12 pm
It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of trousers.
But your feet don't stick out of the end of the world.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:18 am
by noggins
I dont see the benefit to Labour letting Wakeford join them. Hes going to vote against the government anyway, and Labour dont need him to win the constituency at the next GE.
It just makes Labour look cynical, and Wakeford too - moves him from “maverick independent” to “selfserving turncoat”
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:41 am
by dyqik
noggins wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:18 am
I dont see the benefit to Labour letting Wakeford join them. Hes going to vote against the government anyway, and Labour dont need him to win the constituency at the next GE.
It just makes Labour look cynical, and Wakeford too - moves him from “maverick independent” to “selfserving turncoat”
There's a massive advantage in making it seem acceptable for sometime-Tory voters to vote Labour, to make it seem that Labour is a broad tent, and to lower the partisanship somewhat.
Wakeford might not be the best person to do that with, but without voters switching sides, Labour will remain irrelevant.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:24 am
by El Pollo Diablo
Right now, vastly more 2019 Tory voters have moved to apathy (about half) than they have to Labour (about a tenth). As dyqik says, if things like Wakeford can make it more acceptable to them to vote Labour, then Labour will secure a better vote share at the next election, and possibly even win. Assuming that in doing so they don't lose many of their own base voters to apathy.
Re: Red Wall Defections
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:14 pm
by nezumi
Not counting on it but I'll take what I can get. Surprised it's only five but we'll see.