Elon Musk and the ethics of animal experimentation

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Fishnut
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Elon Musk and the ethics of animal experimentation

Post by Fishnut » Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:00 pm

You've probably seen the story that 15 of the 23 monkeys with Elon Musk's Neuralink brain chips died between 2017 and 2020.
Neuralink chips were implanted by drilling holes into the monkeys’ skulls. One primate developed a bl..dy skin infection and had to be euthanized. Another was discovered missing fingers and toes, “possibly from self-mutilation or some other unspecified trauma,” and had to be put down. A third began uncontrollably vomiting shortly after surgery, and days later “appeared to collapse from exhaustion/fatigue.” An autopsy revealed the animal suffered from a brain hemorrhage...

“Pretty much every single monkey that had had implants put in their head suffered from pretty debilitating health effects,” said the PCRM’s research advocacy director Jeremy Beckham...

“These highly invasive implants and their associated hardware, which are inserted in the brain after drilling holes in the animals’ skulls, have produced recurring infections in the animals, significantly compromising their health, as well as the integrity of the research.”
Using animals in scientific research is a privilege and one that comes with a huge number of responsibilities. Ethics approval (in my - admittedly limited - experience) requires a justification for the number of animals being used and an annual review to confirm that their use is still justified and that they are being cared for correctly. Why on earth were they allowed to use 23 monkeys when so many of them were dying?

I am not against animal experimentation. I recognise it's necessary for many types of scientific research, and I recognise that performing invasive surgery is something only a small percentage of animals undergo. But this doesn't seem like a justifiable use of primates. And it worries me.

I'm worried that this plays into the hands of those who oppose animal experimentation and may make it harder or more dangerous for those who do legitimate animal experimentation. But it also worries me that research centres are apparently willing to relax their standards if people hand them enough money. I don't believe this would have been allowed to happen if it was a normal research project. But because it's Musk with his billions UC Davis seems to have looked the other way. The article notes that they stopped working with Neuralink in 2020, and it's not clear of the timeline - when they started working with the monkeys, when they started implanting the chips, etc - so it may be that the deaths all happened in the final year of the project, though that would still raise the question of why they were allowed to go from zero to 23 monkeys in a single year without confirming their techniques worked and were safe. And it may be that the animal rights group who have raised the complaint are exaggerating the harms caused. But even if that's the case, unless they're lying about the number of monkeys used and dead, the statistics do not speak well for them.
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Pishwish
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Re: Elon Musk and the ethics of animal experimentation

Post by Pishwish » Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:50 pm

It's disturbing if true. But I have never heard of "The consequence", and Business Insider and the New York Post are about as reliable as the Sun, so I think we'd need to wait for more information.

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Re: Elon Musk and the ethics of animal experimentation

Post by dyqik » Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:57 am

Pishwish wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:50 pm
It's disturbing if true. But I have never heard of "The consequence", and Business Insider and the New York Post are about as reliable as the Sun, so I think we'd need to wait for more information.
The NY Post is about as reliable as the love child of The Sun and Fox News.

Business Insider just reprints everything they can get their hands on.

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Re: Elon Musk and the ethics of animal experimentation

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:16 am

Fishnut wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:00 pm
I'm worried that this plays into the hands of those who oppose animal experimentation
The PCRM are one of the groups which oppose animal experimentation.

There is something dubious about this article. On the PCRM website, I get two hits when searching for "Neuralink":

https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases ... xperiments

which from May 21, 2021 and is about PCRM filing a lawsuit against UC Davis to get information about the Neuralink experiments.

and https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases ... t-uc-davis

which is dated Feb 10, 2022 and is about filing a complaint with the USDA. It says:
The complaint is based on almost 600 pages of disturbing documents released only after the Physicians Committee filed an initial public records lawsuit in 2021.
which presumably refers to the lawsuit mentioned in the previous press release., However, very few details are given despite the 600 pages of information they now have. And, in fact, the 15 in the Consequence headline is not mentioned. If their case is so strong, why are there not more details? It seems to me that they are on a fishing expedition, particularly for gruesome-loking photos or videos which can be used against the research (and, possibly, animal research in general) - especially as the press release have plenty of appeals to emotion ("brains mutilated in shoddy experiments and were left to suffer and die". It's not clear what happened to the first lawsuit - whether they got some records before going to court and if so, whether the suit has since been dismissed or will proceed.

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Re: Elon Musk and the ethics of animal experimentation

Post by tom p » Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:21 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:00 pm
You've probably seen the story that 15 of the 23 monkeys with Elon Musk's Neuralink brain chips died between 2017 and 2020.
Neuralink chips were implanted by drilling holes into the monkeys’ skulls. One primate developed a bl..dy skin infection and had to be euthanized. Another was discovered missing fingers and toes, “possibly from self-mutilation or some other unspecified trauma,” and had to be put down. A third began uncontrollably vomiting shortly after surgery, and days later “appeared to collapse from exhaustion/fatigue.” An autopsy revealed the animal suffered from a brain hemorrhage...

“Pretty much every single monkey that had had implants put in their head suffered from pretty debilitating health effects,” said the PCRM’s research advocacy director Jeremy Beckham...

“These highly invasive implants and their associated hardware, which are inserted in the brain after drilling holes in the animals’ skulls, have produced recurring infections in the animals, significantly compromising their health, as well as the integrity of the research.”
Using animals in scientific research is a privilege and one that comes with a huge number of responsibilities. Ethics approval (in my - admittedly limited - experience) requires a justification for the number of animals being used and an annual review to confirm that their use is still justified and that they are being cared for correctly. Why on earth were they allowed to use 23 monkeys when so many of them were dying?

I am not against animal experimentation. I recognise it's necessary for many types of scientific research, and I recognise that performing invasive surgery is something only a small percentage of animals undergo. But this doesn't seem like a justifiable use of primates. And it worries me.

I'm worried that this plays into the hands of those who oppose animal experimentation and may make it harder or more dangerous for those who do legitimate animal experimentation. But it also worries me that research centres are apparently willing to relax their standards if people hand them enough money. I don't believe this would have been allowed to happen if it was a normal research project. But because it's Musk with his billions UC Davis seems to have looked the other way. The article notes that they stopped working with Neuralink in 2020, and it's not clear of the timeline - when they started working with the monkeys, when they started implanting the chips, etc - so it may be that the deaths all happened in the final year of the project, though that would still raise the question of why they were allowed to go from zero to 23 monkeys in a single year without confirming their techniques worked and were safe. And it may be that the animal rights group who have raised the complaint are exaggerating the harms caused. But even if that's the case, unless they're lying about the number of monkeys used and dead, the statistics do not speak well for them.
I don't know about US animal testing standards, but it is my understanding that in the UK you could apply for permission to perform a study and would confirm the number of participants at the start of the study.
Given that it involves surgery (presumably under general anaesthetic) and implantation, it would be unsurprising if the risk of post-operative/post-anaesthesia complications (such as the vomiting) & infection were not factored in to the approvals process - any human who has a catheter or a line implanted is at constant risk of infection with what is essentially an open wound.
Truth be told, 23 is not a particularly large number. A friend of mine worked for Pfizer in Kent about 30-odd years ago and he had a personal license for summat like 50k rats/year. And for anything neurological, then primates are obviously far more representative than rats. And they are probably more representative of normal humans than Musk's fanboys are, although they at least would have been able to give informed consent.
Obviously it's Musk, and as such probably distasteful, dodgy self-aggrandising b.llsh.t*; but if it were for something actually useful that could benefit humanity, an experiment on 23 monkeys shouldn't be that much of an ethical problem.

*I haven't looked into what Neuralink was supposed to be trying to do

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